Completely legit reasons for disliking newer Legend of Zelda titles

lee4hmz

From reading about him on KYM, he sounds like he's no better at giving or taking criticism than Chris-chan is. :P 

In fact, I'm wondering if I should just lock this thread in case he finds it. :|

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Bunny

I think this site is sufficiently obscure enough that you don't have to worry about the fella.

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lee4hmz

Even if he doesn't find it, I have to wonder what else can be said. He's kind of a jerk and he makes legal threats against web sites saying things about him he doesn't like; is there anything else that wouldn't be a circular argument or manage to get his attention somehow? I'd rather not have to deal with a DMCA notice...

Anonus

If you think it's not a good idea to keep this around, go ahead and lock it.

lee4hmz

Okay.

lee4hmz

On second thought, since the image links are to imgur and the thread isn't just about the images, I'll go ahead and take the lock off. If the images become a problem, we'll deal with it then. Sorry about that.

Justice4243

I think the worse that's been said is that his arguments hold no real weight and Forsythe mentioned he had no talent.

You can't really press charges for people having opinions about your work.

So...the whole "Lady in the Water" thing...suddenly I understand everything / sincerity mode.

Justice4243

Also, I agree with Corpral Forsythe. His comics are kinda painful to look at, his proportions are just bizarre.

It's probably one of the reasons I couldn't figure out if the op was serious or not, the comic was so poorly drawn I felt it was a parody of arguments rather than real arguments.

lee4hmz

Yeah, it's like Maddox, except dead serious. :|

Irene

May I ask we talk more about the Zelda stuff than the images in general?

Also, am I the only one who didn't like Phantom Hourglass that much?(it wasn't a bad game, but it grated me a bit)

Justice4243

May I ask we talk more about the Zelda stuff than the images in general?

I'd say his art style making it difficult to figure out if his comics are real or parody  at least factors in to his arguments, 

Also, I haven't played Phantom Hourglass.

Honestly, I'm not a die hard Zelda fan, I don't have/make time to play all the games. 

On the other hand, I've never played one that's failed to entertain me. So there's that.

Irene

Which ones have you played? I've played all but Link's Crossbow Training, Tetra's Trackers(I'm an American!), Wii Twilight Princess, Spirit Tracks, and Skyward Sword.

*not a big fan of wii remove controls, imo*

Justice4243

I played the NES ones, the SNES one, OoT, Wind Waker, and just a tiny bit of Twilight Princess.

I originally didn't like the look of Wind Waker, but after playing a bit, I loved it in it's oriental looking, cell shaded glory.

I guess his arguments may not mean they're bad games, but they can be better? Still, I don't see how Ganon being a pig everytime/all the time makes them a better game, or having more cluttered worlds makes them better.

And those are just the arguments I comprehend, let alone the ones I think he made up.

Salix Babylonika

I've played the rail shooter game that came with my Wii.

Beyond that I know nothing of the Zelda franchise and don't really care to.

Irene

Well, technically, Ganon is only ever a pig in OOT and Twilight Princess, or when they used the Pig design. Although Moblins =/= Pigs. So he's only a pig during Twilight Princess with Boar Ganon, and that's it.

He's barely a pig very often, anyway. I like both designs.

Also, since Ganondorf is gone in both current storylines(he's stoned), I'd like to see Moblins become a friendly race. Especially in Wind Waker where a Moblin is in love with a human girl.(I think it's clear the Moblin's around the same age) It could mean Half-Moblin breeds or something. Where they're more humanoid.

Also, let's look at another race, Lynels. We have Horses, but how many large/big cat creatures do we have that could've produced that race?(Actually, it's hard to say if they're a dog or a cat design. Seems to depend the game...)

Justice4243

He was ALWAYS a pig in games 1-3, but I honestly felt that OoT was an improvement in that we got to see Ganondorf and get the picture that he wasn't always some giant monster bent on world domination. 

Maybe a human looking character bent on world domination isn't a huge step, but it at least adds a little depth to the games.

As Myr pointed out, I think a great deal of this comes from our artist deciding the Zelda cartoons are actually enjoyable.

I liked them as a kid, but whenever I try to rewatch some now, it feels like the 80s are hitting my brain with the stupid stick.

Anyhow, I can't figure out what the deal is with panel one. I get that he doesn't like the Goron's, but why?

So they're the stock strong, dumb species. That's pretty pedestrian, nothing to get worked up about.

As far as I know, they haven't been a big focus of the games aside from the odd level here or there.

Irene

Actually, Zelda 1, 2, 3, and 4 used the Bulldog design. Zelda 4(LA) used the pig design too, and only OOT, WW, and TP actually have pig designs... actually, remove TP and switch that with Skyward Sword. So they're about equal. Remember, the Bokoblins, etc. are offshoots and not real Moblins.

I think the reason for the Goron is because they were a big dumb male-only race, while the female-only race were extremely smart and independent, perhaps. Or maybe it's TP's rock-hard nipples...?

Justice4243

I really don't know, and I think that highlight a problem with the comic. He takes a single panel to complain about something when he should have taken several panels to explain it.

Maybe if there's a blog post to accompany it, it'd make more sense, but it's pretty nonsensical on it's own.

Irene

Yeah. Are Gorons really that unpopular?

Justice4243

I have no frickin' clue... This is why I'm having trouble making sense of the list.

Irene

Well, I never saw them being hated on. I know Tingle is hated upon.(I do like him, though, but that's because he's actually pretty unique and one of the non-flat Zelda characters)

Hmm...

Gorons, Curl up and Roll out!

Bunny

The one thing I do agree with is that the fans are way overzealous. When I dare to say that I don't think Ocarina of Time is the best game ever and that I actually prefer Link to the Past, people look at me like I'm the fucking Antichrist.

Misery

I think Link's Awakening is the best game of the series because I am most familar with it. Yeah, stupid I know.

Odradek

There's a much larger thread in Something Awful that he hasn't bothered. Tom Preston has many flaws, but hassling people on the internet for talking smack about him is not one of them.

Ace Rimmer

Majora's Mask is in fact the best Zelda game and anyone who disagrees with that is a Commie

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Irene

My two favorites are tied at Majora's Mask and Link's Awakening. LA does come first overall, though. Much more accessible.

Justice4243

I just noticed Link's Awakening isn't even in panel three. Perhaps because sticking the game arbitrarily outside any of the little black paths undermines his made up point that the first few games where linear.  

Not that it matters, a Link to the past was a PREQUEL to the first two games. I mean...it's called a "Link to the PAST" This pretty much means panel three is constructed out of lies and flim-flam.

It's like...it's like he knows almost nothing about the franchise, but has decided it has been "RUINED FOREVER" just the same.

Irene

Well, to be honest, Twilight Princess, IMO, was the first time I felt like the games were going downhill. I mean, yeah, a lot of them have been rather linear, but they often make up for it with extremely good gameplay. Like LA does. Twilight Princess does do that, I admit, but I was not a fan of the JRPG story. The rest have been much smaller stories, more like a WRPG at that point.

I gotta find the most agreed upon timeline. XD

Justice4243

If I'm interpreting his little box of lies correctly. it looks like he thinks the games went downhill around OoT, or at least decided that's where all the timeline stuff started happening (like I mentioned, many of these panels just don't communicate a coherent view).

But Link's Awakening came out five years before OoT and it doesn't even take place in Hyrule, and just offhandedly mentions Zelda.

But if he thinks Ganon not being a pig is enough to decry the games, then I'm sure he doesn't even consider a Link's Awakening a "Zelda" game.

Yarrun XIX

I think there was an official timeline released a while ago, one that splits everything into three timelines: One for Young Link, one for Adult Link and the one that leads to the Cel games.

Justice4243

There we go.

And hey, I was right about OoT being a prequel to A Link to the Past.

And, as mentioned A Link to the Past is a prequel to games 1 and 2. Link's Awakening is as well, a timeline made from the point of view of the games being release would break down immediately. 

Ace Rimmer

I hate Justice 42

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Justice4243

^^I don't think that contradicts anything I just said...

Ace Rimmer

Wait

He is killed but someone revives him before the events of the first game

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Justice4243

I'm sure they're vague about it. The creators probably didn't even think they needed to resurrect a character they just made up.

It wouldn't be until the future that someone would kill Ganon...in the past.

Justice4243

The Wind Fish said:

I love Justice 42

Well that certainly doesn't contradict anything...

Odradek

Here's the guy who drew the thing in the OP talking about the Zelda show

Justice4243

I can grant that the Zelda Cartoon is fair for it's time, but I don't think that helps his points, any...

Odradek

Yeah, it had reasons for turning out the way it did, but that doesn't mean Nintendo is being unreasonable for not following the show's depiction in later games, which is what he seems to be implying.

ProfessorGator

He actually sounded pretty reasonable in the beginning. I appreciate that he kept a neutral tone of voice when he was first talking about the series "changing and evolving."

But the last few sentences... weren't as reasonable. It's kind of weird to hear "If you're a true Zelda fan" outside of a parody. Then again, we've said much the same about the comics already.

Justice4243

If anything, this whole thread has made me dig deeper into the Zelda mythos than I ever had and I LIKE what I've found. Nintendo found a way to keep the games interesting, and I think making an offshoot timeline where our hero FAILS a game is a bold move. 

If anything, what he seems to want comes off as boring to me. A linear timeline where Link fights the same villain withe the same weapons using the same formula over and over again. 

And running gags like Link trying to get a kiss from Zelda. That would get old REALLY quick if Link saved the world time and time again, but Zelda and Link manage to maintain a relationship built out of mutual attraction and awkwardness for years and then decades.

Irene

Yeah. The TV Show was neat and all, but did anything really get transferred over to the games? The only thing referenced is Link becoming a Spirit(except Zelda becomes one in Spirit Tracks instead). I think the best we got was that OOT showed their was a King that Zelda's father, and that's literally it. Also, Link does kiss Zelda in Zelda II. ;)

Also, I always considered Link's Awakening to happen in Zelda II during your first Raft ride. It's between continents, so it taking a while makes sense. Plus, one can have rather long dreams during 8 hours.

Tachyon

My favourites were Majora's Mask and Twilight Princess, I think, though my fondest Zelda memories are of the Four Swords Adventures multiplayer.

@ Gator: Agreed.  I was actually more-or-less with him in that video until "true Zelda fan".  I never saw that cartoon, but if he got some enjoyment out of it, good for him.  And if he didn't like the N64 games, well, I did, but he's entitled to his opinion.

But then he starts talking about "true fans" and he ends up sounding really silly.

Corporal Forsythe

Right now it's really fashionable to hate on Andrew Dobson or Tom Preston whatever name he's under right now. I think all the hatred everyone is throwing at him at the moment is getting ridiculous but I can at least state why I dislike his comics so much:

•  As someone said on another forum, "style" is organic. It's like a signature. It took me a long time to get my art to where you see it now, and it's probably not done evolving yet. "Style" is not an excuse, "style" is not an objective to attain like what most DA artists think. I also believe that you have to enjoy what you're doing and get involved more than seeing dollar signs for it to take shape. From that, Dobson has no style. He knows the basics of the human figure and that's it. He inks with a dead micron line. He uses base fills for colors. He uses stock gradient fills for backgrounds. As for his characters, they're not expressive at all, artistically speaking. They're always presented from a front-on view, and they get one stock expression per panel. When he does bother to draw a background, it's slammed in there just as generically as his characters. He also understands color about as well as a spastic 3 year old does with a coloring book. Everything is in basic primary colors.  
• From that, he thinks he can stylize. Whenever it is pointed out that he inks with a dead micron line, he quickly points out that the artist behind Tintin used a single-width dead line, too. He doesn't understand that the rest of the work in Tintin is presented in such a pleasing way that he can get away with it.  To further explain this, look at Jack Kirby's work. Jack Kirby was no where near the greatest when it came to comic book character anatomy but his overall composition and linework were the cornerstone of comic books as we know them today. You can take just about any comic book he's worked on and point out several instances where the anatomy or scene was just plain off, but it works for the viewer. What I'm saying here is you have to have an advanced level of stylization to get away with those kinds of things and as stated before, Dobson has no style to begin with.
• The only thing I'm going to say about his writing and characterizations is he's proof for my theory that there should be a law preventing straight men from writing for lesbian characters. He thinks that his obvious mental masturbations are furthering the cause of LGBT when in fact he's doing quite the opposite. Squared.
• I lied. I just remembered another terrible aspect from his writing -- he really, really doesn't get humor. At all. Take a look at this: http://syacartoonist.com/so-you-think-you-re-a-cartoonist -- this is a comic where he lashes back at his detractors by trying to ape KC Green's style and delivery, most likely out of petty jealousy.  He doesn't even understand the 4chan humor he uses at the very beginning.  For the punchline he's trying to present that KC Green uses throwaway PURPLE MONKEY DISHWASHER style "random" humor with Abe Lincoln smoking a bubble pipe and that he, Andrew Dobson, is above that. I shouldn't have to explain to anyone familiar with KC Green's comics that his stuff is genuinely funny to people who understand funny (which is everyone but Dobson.)  The real punchline is KC Green probably has no idea who Dobson is and is still happily making his funny comics that everyone else enjoys. 
• Relating to this thread, he actually and honestly thinks his opinions regarding some video game is dangerous and edgy.  

Corporal Forsythe

Also, he'll never come stomping around this forum. He has a hugbox with a few fans that he keeps himself tightly locked into and away from that big scary objective world out there.