also speaking of games you didn't think were very good, the guy who made Mystik Belle has updated the game a bunch since you last tried it, including making a separate button for dashing and implementing 60 fps and adding a bunch of translations and rebalancing the bosses and improving animations and sound effects and more
not asking you to pick it up again -- i am actually thinking of gifting you a copy when it next goes on sale, if you're still interested
I'd appreciate the thought. I don't know if I'd play it though since I don't have a controller anymore.
This is kinda a dick thing to say but if you're going to buy me anything (and I absolutely would never expect that but I'm just saying hypothetically) I'd prefer it be something on my Steam wishlist since that's all stuff I'm pretty sure works.
as for INK it's just kinda boring. Like it's definitely not awful but it's not really that interesting either.
sometimes i'm hesitant to even put stuff on my wishlist since it becomes public and i have to deal with the fallout
like for example i put child of light on my wishlist and then i found out it needs uplay and then i was like, nah i don't want it but i forgot to take it off my wishlist
then a friend got it for me on steam and i was like...uh, okay, sure, thank you, i appreciate your thoughts, and i accepted the game without saying a word about uplay
I think what's surprised me most about this series is that for an early 2000's JRPG full of the usual mechanical and storytelling trappings, it feels surprisingly Western in its politics and attitudes. I'm not sure how much of that is XSeed's stellar translation and how much is the original script, but it has a feel of authenticity you don't often see in the genre.
the more I think about it, the more I feel that I'm caring less and less about any complaints about if whatever indie game pixel art is actually "retro" or not
I mean, why make the assumption that pixel art should only be suited for "retro" atmosphere, why can't it be able to conjure up other sorts of experiences, why can't new pixel art be made for different aesthetics
I had this thought while watching a dude's video about what he thought was "bad" pixel art, of which he listed as examples Undertale, and fuckin' VVVVVV
speaking of which I honestly don't think for a second Undertale's pixel art was supposed to invoke any "retro" feel at all, despite all the Mother homages
the more I think about it, the more I feel that I'm caring less and less about any complaints about if whatever indie game pixel art is actually "retro" or not
I mean, why make the assumption that pixel art should only be suited for "retro" atmosphere, why can't it be able to conjure up other sorts of experiences, why can't new pixel art be made for different aesthetics
The videogame industry took a hard turn toward 3D back in the 1990s, basically repeatedly rejecting 2D and pixel-based art as old and outdated, and because this sort of thing was done in advertisements and because many gamers are naturally looking for the next big shiny thrill, gamers themselves took up the thinking and focused primarily on 3D experiences for a decade or so. 2D gaming was basically stuff that's only for handhelds; if it wasn't 3D it didn't belong on a console. PC naturally had even greater graphical capabilities so it was subjected to similar trends.
As a result, you have basically a cohort of ~30-year-olds who grew up on 2D games, then played primarily 3D games for years, and now are suddenly rediscovering their childhood. And you also have a cohort of current teenagers who grew up on 3D games and see 2D games the way we young adults see the phonograph -- described by terms like "vintage", "retro", "period piece", and so on. Basically, the point being, it's something not of our era, but of a bygone era.
This applies to general trends, in other words a perceived "mainstream". Individual people may have different personal experiences -- especially considering that emulation became a popular but never "mainstream" thing as it's not exactly completely legal.
For example, for me, I never "moved on" to 3D gaming. So, to me, 2D gaming is still "current", and still my "home base", so to speak.
I had this thought while watching a dude's video about what he thought was "bad" pixel art, of which he listed as examples Undertale, and fuckin' VVVVVV
By "bad" he probably meant "low detail". Part of the conceit about how better graphical capabilities make games look better has to do with higher resolutions and greater levels of detail.
Retro-style games took off mostly out of cheap nostalgia, but they've persisted because they stumbled across something very important that's a lot easier to hit when you make a game that way. A hell of a lot of the shiny new 3D stuff is shit because they spend so much time on fidelity that they waste tons of development time, try to leverage shininess in place of writing, and/or forget to make the game fun.
When you reduce things to pixel art, you force yourself to focus very hard on certain things, and give yourself a lot of time to do it. For cases like VVVVVV you make a very simple concept and deviate very little to add complexity. For things like Undertale, you're forced to really think about how to concentrate personality into the constraints you set for yourself, which means you have to create personalities strong enough to do that and think about simple, exaggerated ways to make them come to life (something a lot of modern developers fail utterly at with all the tools in the world).
Like, fucking NES Punch-Out has more personality than Ni No Kuni.
When I think of the whole "photorealism taking over game play" thing, I think of things like Space Ace. It and Dragon's Lair are beautifully animated, full-motion video productions, but the game logic is so simple that a standard DVD-Video player can emulate it using the menu system.
when I said "retro" I was also meaning to imply "supposed to perfectly emulate NES/SNES graphics/capabilities, or be natural modern evolutions of those graphics"
I like what is popularly defined as the retro aesthetic I think a good deal more than Edlyn does, but I do have to admit I am confused at the lack of retro PC games out there.
when I said "retro" I was also meaning to imply "supposed to perfectly emulate NES/SNES graphics/capabilities, or be natural modern evolutions of those graphics"
I'm not sure how one can say that Undertale isn't what you said in the above quoted post.
I had this thought while watching a dude's video about what he thought was "bad" pixel art, of which he listed as examples Undertale, and fuckin' VVVVVV
Undertale is very much a natural modern evolution of those lower-tech graphics.
I think my issue is that pixel art, in and of itself, feels vaguely point-missing to me, much like chiptune music does.
I'm not saying that everything has to be in the same context that it was on the NES/SNES, just that not everything has to be this flat and shadowless look and sound.
I think that's a huge part of why I prefer Cave Story+ to the original. The modified graphics and music make it so that the game actually does interesting things with the pixel art and chiptunes that you don't see in a lot of other games that use those things.
With regards to the PC comment, I just meant that I do wonder why the look of old PC games isn't really emulated by modern gamemakers. Even the stuff that throws back to older PC genres tend to use modern art. I wonder why that is.
well the dude in the video I was referring to earlier thought that UT's pixel art looked ugly and bland and that it having proper SNES-influenced graphics would've made it even more popular among those who were initially turned off by the game because of the art
I think my issue is that pixel art, in and of itself, feels vaguely point-missing to me, much like chiptune music does.
I'm not saying that everything has to be in the same context that it was on the NES/SNES, just that not everything has to be this flat and simplistic look and sound.
it's all about whether the art has a personality of its own, yes
well the dude in the video I was referring to earlier thought that UT's pixel art looked ugly and bland and that it having proper SNES-influenced graphics would've made it even more popular among those who were initially turned off by the game because of the art
I'd argue that the minimalism of the game is part of the intended aesthetic. Gives it a feel of focus.
And the way it is a natural evolution of those lower-tech graphics is shown by how it incorporates very modern types of smooth animations and other special effects.
I think my issue is that pixel art, in and of itself, feels vaguely point-missing to me, much like chiptune music does.
I'm not saying that everything has to be in the same context that it was on the NES/SNES, just that not everything has to be this flat and shadowless look and sound.
As for pixel art, frankly speaking all of the stuff we see on a screen is technically pixel art, even if it's generated using vector graphics. Thing with the stuff we normally call pixel art, is that it can also be extremely detailed and expressive -- look at games like Chrono Trigger and Symphony of the Night. And heck, even some NES games did beautiful things with their 8-bit pixel art -- such as Super Mario Bros. 3.
As for chiptunes, I can't speak for anyone else but I tend to focus more on melody, harmony, and rhythm, and less on texture and timbre/instrumentation and various effects, so there's not that much that becomes "missing" to me when I listen to a chiptune. An NES music track is basically like listening to two oboes and a bassoon, accompanied by a drum set.
The same principle applies to chiptunes as retro graphics. The constraints force you to focus very hard on the core substance and memorability of your song instead of just spicing it up with high-def noise.
This was a huge problem when the early CD consoles first came out. The music was almost entirely forgettable melody-less fluff because they were so stoked about high-def sound that they forgot to give it a foundation. Compare the Genesis and SCD/Saturn soundtracks of Sonic 3D Blast or Ecco.
I won't speak for Edlyn, but my argument is exactly that pixel art can be so much more than just this flat, shadowless aesthetic if that most people use it for.
Likewise with chiptunes, I feel like a lot of people don't really realize the full range of sounds and instruments that chiptunes can substitute for. The Cave Story+ soundtrack, as I already mentioned, is one that uses the chiptune sound to its full potential.
Yeah the point I was trying to make is that retro style stuff may have started out of cheap nostalgia, but it persists because it puts you under artificial constraints that make it much more immediately apparent when you do or don't actually have a marketable product -- something that can be masked too well by modern glitz.
Talking about old games makes me wonder what were the first games you ever played?
This really depends on what is meant by "game". Like when I was very small I played Reader Rabbit and stuff like that on my grandmother's computer (before I had a computer at home).
The first "real" video game I played was Pokémon Red.
My personal introduction to gaming was Super Mario Bros. The original 8-bit, on the NES.
As for "retro" pixel art, I wonder if pixel art games can't just be considered an aesthetic of their own without regard for nostalgia or "retroness". I would like that.
Not everything needs to be super 3D five billion polygons per second with bad voice acting
^^^ I agree completely. It's just when people use pixel art as an asthetic on its own, they tend to go for this flat and shadowless look that doesn't look too appealing to me.
Yume Nikki is a good example of something that uses pixel art in a modern way and doesn't do that.
Thinking about it, I do like Paul Robertson's work, and he does the flat/shadowless thing, but with a distinct artstyle.
I suppose I more object to the way people don't really understand what the NES/SNES games did to make pixel art look pretty, and that those ways can apply outside of those contexts.
Talking about old games makes me wonder what were the first games you ever played?
I think it was old school Atari games, like Tron, for me.
I'm surely dating myself by sharing this, but the first game I ever remember playing was "Hunt The Wumpus" on a Texas Instruments home computer. "Donkey Kong" too, around the same time period.
I'm offering to gift it to anyone who's interested (either on Steam or on the link provided, which has the nice advantage of being able to be played on mobile) 'cause it really deserves to have a bigger presence, both here and in general
Comments
Looks really good. Full trailer in November.
but this seems like an...inkteresting game
also speaking of games you didn't think were very good, the guy who made Mystik Belle has updated the game a bunch since you last tried it, including making a separate button for dashing and implementing 60 fps and adding a bunch of translations and rebalancing the bosses and improving animations and sound effects and more
not asking you to pick it up again -- i am actually thinking of gifting you a copy when it next goes on sale, if you're still interested
sometimes i'm hesitant to even put stuff on my wishlist since it becomes public and i have to deal with the fallout
like for example i put child of light on my wishlist and then i found out it needs uplay and then i was like, nah i don't want it but i forgot to take it off my wishlist
then a friend got it for me on steam and i was like...uh, okay, sure, thank you, i appreciate your thoughts, and i accepted the game without saying a word about uplay
As a result, you have basically a cohort of ~30-year-olds who grew up on 2D games, then played primarily 3D games for years, and now are suddenly rediscovering their childhood. And you also have a cohort of current teenagers who grew up on 3D games and see 2D games the way we young adults see the phonograph -- described by terms like "vintage", "retro", "period piece", and so on. Basically, the point being, it's something not of our era, but of a bygone era.
This applies to general trends, in other words a perceived "mainstream". Individual people may have different personal experiences -- especially considering that emulation became a popular but never "mainstream" thing as it's not exactly completely legal.
For example, for me, I never "moved on" to 3D gaming. So, to me, 2D gaming is still "current", and still my "home base", so to speak.
By "bad" he probably meant "low detail". Part of the conceit about how better graphical capabilities make games look better has to do with higher resolutions and greater levels of detail.
Undertale is very much a natural modern evolution of those lower-tech graphics.
I think my issue is that pixel art, in and of itself, feels vaguely point-missing to me, much like chiptune music does.
I'm not saying that everything has to be in the same context that it was on the NES/SNES, just that not everything has to be this flat and shadowless look and sound.
I think that's a huge part of why I prefer Cave Story+ to the original. The modified graphics and music make it so that the game actually does interesting things with the pixel art and chiptunes that you don't see in a lot of other games that use those things.
With regards to the PC comment, I just meant that I do wonder why the look of old PC games isn't really emulated by modern gamemakers. Even the stuff that throws back to older PC genres tend to use modern art. I wonder why that is.
And the way it is a natural evolution of those lower-tech graphics is shown by how it incorporates very modern types of smooth animations and other special effects.
As for pixel art, frankly speaking all of the stuff we see on a screen is technically pixel art, even if it's generated using vector graphics. Thing with the stuff we normally call pixel art, is that it can also be extremely detailed and expressive -- look at games like Chrono Trigger and Symphony of the Night. And heck, even some NES games did beautiful things with their 8-bit pixel art -- such as Super Mario Bros. 3.
As for chiptunes, I can't speak for anyone else but I tend to focus more on melody, harmony, and rhythm, and less on texture and timbre/instrumentation and various effects, so there's not that much that becomes "missing" to me when I listen to a chiptune. An NES music track is basically like listening to two oboes and a bassoon, accompanied by a drum set.
I won't speak for Edlyn, but my argument is exactly that pixel art can be so much more than just this flat, shadowless aesthetic if that most people use it for.
Likewise with chiptunes, I feel like a lot of people don't really realize the full range of sounds and instruments that chiptunes can substitute for. The Cave Story+ soundtrack, as I already mentioned, is one that uses the chiptune sound to its full potential.
I think it was old school Atari games, like Tron, for me.
This speaks to me on a deep, spiritual level. Minus the swearing, anyway.
The first "real" video game I played was Pokémon Red.
As for "retro" pixel art, I wonder if pixel art games can't just be considered an aesthetic of their own without regard for nostalgia or "retroness". I would like that.
Not everything needs to be super 3D five billion polygons per second with bad voice acting
Yume Nikki is a good example of something that uses pixel art in a modern way and doesn't do that.
I suppose I more object to the way people don't really understand what the NES/SNES games did to make pixel art look pretty, and that those ways can apply outside of those contexts.