that doesn't seem too weird really. it'd look pretty weird if i converted to orthodox even though there's a huge russian immigrant community where my parents live
Well, think of that little voice of conscience in your mind that says, "Is that really right?" Not when what you are doing is something you have been told is wrong, but when that deep-down feeling of injustice rises up in you, saying that what is happening is wrong, or at least not really right.
Cultivate that voice of conscience. It will guide you.
can i ask about this? is doing so a derail?
it's just, how do you know that voice is worth listening to?
how do you know it's not parroting a set of acquired prejudices and biological instincts with no moral value
also i think it would look pretty strange if i converted to a foreign religion
unless i somehow was convinced it was the most important thing i should be doing with my life, i'd be scared of being just another Westerner appropriating someone else's culture
Well, think of that little voice of conscience in your mind that says, "Is that really right?" Not when what you are doing is something you have been told is wrong, but when that deep-down feeling of injustice rises up in you, saying that what is happening is wrong, or at least not really right.
Cultivate that voice of conscience. It will guide you.
can i ask about this? is doing so a derail?
it's just, how do you know that voice is worth listening to?
how do you know it's not parroting a set of acquired prejudices and biological instincts with no moral value
tho the possibility that it *might* be bad is unsettling
there is also the possibility that 'bad' itself might be the product of acquired prejudices and biological instincts and therefore any valuation is arbitrary, of course
Umm, that does sound a bit like an implication that "people can't be moral without religion", which is obviously not an argument I believe.
As for how do we know - well, if we've figured that already, there would be much less trouble in the world. But the same uncertainty could be held against every voice, not just conscience.
I would say that our best bet is to utilise some capability for empathy and imagine how we would fare in another person's shoes.
No offence taken, and it is true that listening to one's conscience is not always a good advice. I mean, racists, sexists, abusers and other such folks do it too. For example, my country is extremely homophobic and at least half-atheist, and plenty of homophobes say that "Well, it's obvious that this is morally repulsive! That's what my conscience tells me!" without any sort of religious justification.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
I believe there's nothing wrong with converting to a religion that is not prominent in your country. Go worship Odin or Guan Yu or something, if you feel you truly need it.
PROVIDED you get it right the first time. And that's hard, so folks just stick with what they know and can get.
also i think it would look pretty strange if i converted to a foreign religion
unless i somehow was convinced it was the most important thing i should be doing with my life, i'd be scared of being just another Westerner appropriating someone else's culture
This makes me wonder how Aondeug (who is, I think, ethnically Mexican) would feel about all of this.
in any case, my very much non-Celtic (our branch of the family is pretty thoroughly Netherlander) grandmother is a Wiccan. So while there is definitely an element that seeks the exotic at the expense of any deeper meaning, I don't think the "white people practicing some foreign religion to make themselves seem cool" trope is very true in this day and age, as easy as it is to buy into the idea that it might be.
also i think it would look pretty strange if i converted to a foreign religion
unless i somehow was convinced it was the most important thing i should be doing with my life, i'd be scared of being just another Westerner appropriating someone else's culture
This makes me wonder how Aondeug (who is, I think, ethnically Mexican) would feel about all of this.
Last time I saw 11 she and one of Shannon's friends who is from Israel ended up getting into really deep discussions about Middle-Eastern stuff, mostly. Not 100% sure if this is relevant but it feels that way.
also, yeah, she's half-white half-Mexican in descent. She goes to a Thai wat, if I remember correctly.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
I don't think the "white people practicing some foreign religion to make themselves seem cool" trope is very true in this day and age, as easy as it is to buy into the idea that it might be.
Wouldn't call it a trope, merely a fact. Last I checked, you folks still practice yoga and tai chi bereft of background and without understanding. And you folks still run New Age shops selling crystals and other nonsense, take tours across Asia to see temples and nonsense, and what not.
That's why I said "get it right the first time." You come to the altar or the shrine or the prayer-mat willing, able, and compliant. You take what is given, or you leave. And yeah, everyone has problems with the teachings, but ultimately you are the one learning.
Not every Westerner who practises Asian spiritual or meditative practices is appropriating or misunderstanding the culture, though. Some people legitimately seek to immerse themselves in that way of thinking and living. Saying otherwise is basically like saying that only people of X ethnicity can truly believe or experience Y, which is pretty racist and exceedingly hypocritical (given the spread of Buddhism outside of India, etc.).
I know that's not what you mean, but it really does sound like it at points.
Yeah, but I prefer to see that as sad rather than offensive, as people who desperately want to believe something tend to be, whether they turn to crystals or Christ—and frankly, the ones that turn to the former are generally a lot less dangerous to others. And as education about other cultures increases, the ratio of the clueless to the true devotees diminishes.
I would also like to add that the precursors to the hippies, the beatniks, frequently immersed themselves wholesale in the beliefs of other cultures because the ideas resonated with them. They did not screw around. Consider that part of the inspiration for Brion Gysin and William Burroughs' cutup technique lay in the calligraphic spells of Moroccan witchcraft, with the intent being to transform the word through repetition and reconfiguration into something beyond words.
I am quite fine with the New Age on ideological grounds, though not on intellectual. It's just not useful for me, as it is too obviously mashed together for me to persuade myself to believe and too "do what you like" to offer guidance when I need one.
Still, I don't think that there is much disrespectful about it. Besides, "Ohhh, we like some shiny bits of your culture and would like to borrow them pretty please" seems way more respectful than "your culture and beliefs are disgusting and evil with a capital E", if I had to choose between one and the other
whether they turn to crystals or Christ—and frankly, the ones that turn to the former are generally a lot less dangerous to others.
Er...yes. Of course. Nothing wrong with crystals at all! Move along, nothing to see here.
I would also like to add that the precursors to the hippies, the beatniks, frequently immersed themselves wholesale in the beliefs of other cultures because the ideas resonated with them. They did not screw around. Consider that part of the inspiration for Brion Gysin and William Burroughs' cutup technique lay in the calligraphic spells of Moroccan witchcraft, with the intent being to transform the word through repetition and reconfiguration into something beyond words.
Eh. Some of the first-wave hippies, sure. The kind currently infesting Eugene and Portland, not so much. They're sold on a theme park picture and rarely have much understanding or even knowledge of the philosophy beyond what most readily fits into the stereotype.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
The new age stores in Portland here seem pretty well stocked if someone wanted to make an earnest attempt at understanding an eastern religion for the first time.
Not that I can speak as to if people actually do it or not...
Then again, I guess I should take a closer gander and see if their are actually copies of the Bhagavad Gita or Threefold Lotus Sutra as opposed to just a bunch of quote books and meditation guides...
They have nice looking statues of the Buddha and various Bodhisattva and Hindu gods, however.
Wouldn't call it a trope, merely a fact. Last I checked, you folks still practice yoga and tai chi bereft of background and without understanding. And you folks still run New Age shops selling crystals and other nonsense, take tours across Asia to see temples and nonsense, and what not.
That's why I said "get it right the first time." You come to the altar or the shrine or the prayer-mat willing, able, and compliant. You take what is given, or you leave. And yeah, everyone has problems with the teachings, but ultimately
you are the one learning.
Yoga was invented in like the 1960s dude. Unless that was your point, but if it was you phrased it strangely.
And personally, I have never met a single person who's done a temple tour across Asia. Like I said, I'm pretty sure that kind of practice mostly died out sometime after the 60s ended. Even when it was active, that kind of person was largely confined to California (and specific parts thereof, moreover). Which is not where I live (I am going to be charitable and assume you don't mean 'white people' when you say "you people"). Modern New Age takes far more from a poor understanding of Celtic practice than any of the various Asian beliefs (speaking of which, lumping all of those together is rather silly).
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
There's kinda two aspects here, there's this:
Indian monks, beginning with Swami Vivekananda, brought yoga to the West in the late 19th century. In the 1980s, yoga became popular as a system of physical exercise across the Western world. This form of yoga is often called Hatha yoga.
And then there's the root of what caused these practices in the first place, which are ancient.
Wouldn't call it a trope, merely a fact. Last I checked, you folks still practice yoga and tai chi bereft of background and without understanding. And you folks still run New Age shops selling crystals and other nonsense, take tours across Asia to see temples and nonsense, and what not.
That's why I said "get it right the first time." You come to the altar or the shrine or the prayer-mat willing, able, and compliant. You take what is given, or you leave. And yeah, everyone has problems with the teachings, but ultimately
you are the one learning.
Yoga was invented in like the 1960s dude. Unless that was your point, but if it was you phrased it strangely.
um dude no yoga is mentioned in the bhagavad gita so it's from 500 BC at least, though i'm willing to bet that the roots go back even further but i'm too lazy to google it myself
And personally, I have never met a single person who's done a temple tour across Asia. Like I said, I'm pretty sure that kind of practice mostly died out sometime after the 60s ended. Even when it was active, that kind of person was largely confined to California (and specific parts thereof, moreover). Which is not where I live (I am going to be charitable and assume you don't mean 'white people' when you say "you people"). Modern New Age takes far more from a poor understanding of Celtic practice than any of the various Asian beliefs (speaking of which, lumping all of those together is rather silly).
Yes but my understanding is that said ancient practices are suspiciously poorly documented and mostly are just a series of carvings.
It's a bit like claiming some kind of walking exercise is an ancient Egyptian practice based on the poses their wall-paintings.
um dude no yoga is mentioned in the bhagavad gita so it's from 500 BC at least, though i'm willing to bet that the roots go back even further but i'm too lazy to google it myself
My understanding is that the term "yoga" is very old, but that and what is actually practiced today as yoga are not the same thing.
I might be wrong but ultimately that's a minutiae here.
Yes but my understanding is that said ancient practices are suspiciously poorly documented and mostly are just a series of carvings.
It's a bit like claiming some kind of walking exercise is an ancient Egyptian practice based on the poses their wall-paintings.
um dude no yoga is mentioned in the bhagavad gita so it's from 500 BC at least, though i'm willing to bet that the roots go back even further but i'm too lazy to google it myself
My understanding is that the term "yoga" is very old, but that and what is actually practiced today as yoga are not the same thing.
I might be wrong but ultimately that's a minutiae here.
There's philosophical and spiritual reasons for doing Yoga that I doubt are taught in the average class at the gym.
Obviously, the people getting into it tend to do it for health reasons and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but I can see how it's sort of an important part of a culture that's been repurposed and stripped of meaning.
If the practice was originally designed to aid in spiritual liberation and westerners are mostly using it to lose a little body fat, I'd imagine that'd be like finding out Asian countries are throwing bread and wine parties called "Communion" because some Christian pastors went over and started the practice a few decades ago.
I'd imagine that'd be like finding out Asian countries are throwing bread and wine parties called "Communion" because some Christian pastures went over and started the practice a few decades ago.
If the practice was originally designed to aid in spiritual liberation and westerners are mostly using it to loose a little body fat, I'd imagine that'd be like finding out Asian countries are throwing bread and wine parties called "Communion" because some Christian pastures went over and started the practice a few decades ago.
I would not be surprised if this has happened somewhere.
Where are we talking about by the way when we say "Asian Countries"?
I'm just concerned that we're all speaking too nebulously and I'm at the point where I don't actually know what I'm supposed to take from this conversation other than Kraken not liking hippies. Which, fair enough, but still.
Well I think hippies are generally agreed to be an acceptable punching bag, but I don't really think he needed to basically imply that Beholder was pulling a Lisa Simpson on us.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
There's philosophical and spiritual reasons for doing Yoga that I doubt are taught in the average class at the gym.
Obviously, the people getting into it tend to do it for health reasons and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that, but I can see how it's sort of an important part of a culture that's been repurposed and stripped of meaning.
The modern West is really good at stripping things of meaning.
I didn't say I necessarily agreed with their status, it's just how they tend to be viewed.
At least in this country, I can't speak for anywhere else.
I think contempt for them is more because they were ultimately unable to change anything, which really, is a very American reason to dislike someone if I may say so.
I'd imagine that'd be like finding out Asian countries are throwing bread and wine parties called "Communion" because some Christian pastors went over and started the practice a few decades ago.
i'm imagining this in my head and chortling a bit"
"Hey gang! I just picked up a bottle of Chianti and stopped at the bakery. Who wants to communion at my place? I'll even break out the robes and thorny crown!"
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
It's Europeans doing that in Brave New World. They use soma instead of wine though.
Comments
it's just, how do you know that voice is worth listening to?
how do you know it's not parroting a set of acquired prejudices and biological instincts with no moral value
how
unless i somehow was convinced it was the most important thing i should be doing with my life, i'd be scared of being just another Westerner appropriating someone else's culture
tho the possibility that it *might* be bad is unsettling
there is also the possibility that 'bad' itself might be the product of acquired prejudices and biological instincts and therefore any valuation is arbitrary, of course
As for how do we know - well, if we've figured that already, there would be much less trouble in the world. But the same uncertainty could be held against every voice, not just conscience.
I would say that our best bet is to utilise some capability for empathy and imagine how we would fare in another person's shoes.
i didn't mean to imply that you can't be moral without religion, sorry if i seemed to be suggesting that
the Estonian one i mean
he's an atheist and proud of it, but he thinks homosexuality is gross and fundamentally wrong
PROVIDED you get it right the first time. And that's hard, so folks just stick with what they know and can get.
^ "What wat?" "Thai wat."
Wouldn't call it a trope, merely a fact. Last I checked, you folks still practice yoga and tai chi bereft of background and without understanding. And you folks still run New Age shops selling crystals and other nonsense, take tours across Asia to see temples and nonsense, and what not.
That's why I said "get it right the first time." You come to the altar or the shrine or the prayer-mat willing, able, and compliant. You take what is given, or you leave. And yeah, everyone has problems with the teachings, but ultimately you are the one learning.
Still, I don't think that there is much disrespectful about it. Besides, "Ohhh, we like some shiny bits of your culture and would like to borrow them pretty please" seems way more respectful than "your culture and beliefs are disgusting and evil with a capital E", if I had to choose between one and the other
Eh. Some of the first-wave hippies, sure. The kind currently infesting Eugene and Portland, not so much. They're sold on a theme park picture and rarely have much understanding or even knowledge of the philosophy beyond what most readily fits into the stereotype.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
And personally, I have never met a single person who's done a temple tour across Asia. Like I said, I'm pretty sure that kind of practice mostly died out sometime after the 60s ended. Even when it was active, that kind of person was largely confined to California (and specific parts thereof, moreover). Which is not where I live (I am going to be charitable and assume you don't mean 'white people' when you say "you people"). Modern New Age takes far more from a poor understanding of Celtic practice than any of the various Asian beliefs (speaking of which, lumping all of those together is rather silly).
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
tru
It's a bit like claiming some kind of walking exercise is an ancient Egyptian practice based on the poses their wall-paintings.
My understanding is that the term "yoga" is very old, but that and what is actually practiced today as yoga are not the same thing.
I might be wrong but ultimately that's a minutiae here.
Especially considering that many of them are not even using religious trappings for it.
I am not one of them, but they exist.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Where are we talking about by the way when we say "Asian Countries"?
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
I'm just concerned that we're all speaking too nebulously and I'm at the point where I don't actually know what I'm supposed to take from this conversation other than Kraken not liking hippies. Which, fair enough, but still.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Though I can understand where it is coming from
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
At least in this country, I can't speak for anywhere else.
I think contempt for them is more because they were ultimately unable to change anything, which really, is a very American reason to dislike someone if I may say so.
Don't mind me.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis