i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
If you're willing to compromise on omnipotent part, Tengrism might work. Definitely hitting the social aspect as it basically recognizes all religions as some form of truth.
If you ctr+f "afterlife" this will help with one of your other points.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
If you're looking for a religion where God is a liberal, doesn't the free will defense cover the Problem of Evil? That gets you down to four points.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
You mean the suffering caused by predation, parasitism, and disease? Animal free will.
Natural disasters? Maybe there are wills (gods) behind their material causes.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
If you're willing to compromise on omnipotent part, Tengrism might work. Definitely hitting the social aspect as it basically recognizes all religions as some form of truth.
Since religions are generally authoritarian, and religious practice can reasonably be defined as participation in a past time sanctified by "hierophanies", I think recognizing other world religions as some form of truth is deeply reactionary.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
Anyway, hippies make me really angry because they all came over here (to Asia), took whatever they wanted to assuage their counter-cultural desires, and then left, bringing you folks nothing of importance, consequence, or accuracy.
They heard, but learned nothing. And it pleased them, for they were huge shitlords.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
I'm not sure what that means.
What I'm saying is that hippies were mostly white folks who turned pilgrim and sojourned their way here so they could stroke their big "enlightened" dicks. And they're still here. And they're still there.
What Beholder is searching for is something that she can believe in without feeling like the world is unjust, and I can really respect that. She is not trying to lord any sense of enlightenment over others, any sense that she is closer to God or whatever; she simply seeks goodness in the world.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
Well I wouldn't mean to give her such a horrid label. All kinds of folks share values that might in some way be similar to what hippies espouse.
I'm just really over-sensitive and I get angry over the slightest things really easily. I've been struggling with these matters for a while, and I decided recently to make my struggling public.
tl;dr: One thing lead to another in my mind and now I sound like your grandfathers, only from the other end.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Friday would approve of the blatant Hippie hate.
Kinda fascinating that Beholder's requirements do seem like they would fit the bill of many counter-culture spiritual guides, though I couldn't think of any that fit them to a 'T'. Even they seem to trip up on a requirement somewhere.
Mojave has something of a point in that Tengrism has no real formalized structure, and the same could probably be said of any aforementioned spiritualism that fits the bill.
So, they'd only be "liberal" in the sense that they had little rules regarding certain aspects of society and behavior.
Anyway, hippies make me really angry because they all came over here (to Asia), took whatever they wanted to assuage their counter-cultural desires, and then left, bringing you folks nothing of importance, consequence, or accuracy.
I'm not as enraged about this, but at the same time I do kinda feel a nagging annoyance at the sort of spirituality you're talking about and the very flawed representation of Asian religions we sort of hear about over here.
Of course, actually studying them and doing a little bit of research would address these huge gaps and misrepresented pieces, but it's hard to say how many are kinda into, say, "feel good Buddhism" instead of making some effort to understand it.
Probably the same attitude that has people running around explaining Confucianism is a "philosophy" rather than taking a closer look at the historical and cultural roots of Confucianism to understand it only seems that way because Confucianism coexisted with other religions that basically served as a divine approval for much of Confucianism's tenants.
I think that I am an animist of sorts more than anything myself. The idea that spirits and powers exist within all things appeals to me on a very basic level, and even if not literally, provably true, it makes more sense to me than the proscriptions and dictates applied to the spiritual realm than more god-based conceptions of the universe. Pantheism and panentheism are also pretty cool.
Sometimes I side-step into a kind of pantheistic pessimism or even nihilism, though. But maybe that's just because I'm more comfortable with the idea of the universe being hostile or pointless than most people. My thinking is: What does it matter if life isn't inherently good? You make your own meaning, your own rules and standards. You are free. I'm OK with that.
Unitarian Universalism seems all right, but I think that the lack of certitude in anything throws some people.
Probably the same attitude that has people running around explaining Confucianism is a "philosophy" rather than taking a closer look at the historical and cultural roots of Confucianism to understand it only seems that way because Confucianism coexisted with other religions that basically served as a divine approval for much of Confucianism's tenants.
Good gods, don't write when you've just woken up and use some freakin' commas or semi-colons, you pleb.
Probably the same attitude that has people running around explaining Confucianism is a "philosophy" rather than taking a closer look at the historical and cultural roots of Confucianism to understand it only seems that way because Confucianism coexisted with other religions that basically served as a divine approval for much of Confucianism's tenants.
Good gods, don't write when you've just woken up and use some freakin' commas or semi-colons, you pleb.
As I understand it confucianism started out as a philosophy of governance and social relations and over time kinda grew into something that had religious aspects?
Asian religions are not something i know a great deal about unfortunately, this is merely the understanding i have gained from some history textbooks...
The nature of religion in China is very different from that of religion in the West, and has been basically since the beginning. There is a lot less of a focus on deity and faith, and a lot more on applied philosophy and... I guess you would say how religious arguments are framed, rather than the content thereof (although content is important). It's very pragmatic, much of the time.
At least, that's what I've gathered from what reading I've done Chinese history and religion, which isn't as much as I should like. I do know that religion in other East Asian countries is viewed pretty differently despite Chinese influence, especially in Japan.
from what i can tell East, South and Southeast Asian religions tend to place a larger amount of emphasis on ritual than those in the West, is that accurate?
i do know that rites and etiquette are important in Confucianism, more so than in the teachings of ancient Greek philosophers
Confucius was described to me as a philosopher by a Chinese guy who i used to know, but that may have been for want of a more accurate English word
He was definitely more of an ethical philosopher than a theologian or religious teacher in the European, Middle Eastern or South Asian senses. Certainly not a prophet or mystic like Zarathustra or Muhammad.
What Beholder is searching for is something that she can believe in without feeling like the world is unjust, and I can really respect that. She is not trying to lord any sense of enlightenment over others, any sense that she is closer to God or whatever; she simply seeks goodness in the world.
At least, that is how I interpreted her question.
That's pretty much it, and thank you for understanding. Specifically, I am seeking goodness in the way that would inspire me, which makes me somewhat adverse to simply picking things up as I go. I do need a story, a tale, a song, a narrative that is shared by others in order for it to be effective to me.
That being said, people are right, of course, in pointing out that deliberately seeking out a belief that matches one's existing convictions is hardly intellectually honest. I've been thinking pretty much the same thing for years, so I might as well go on with it, and say that I believe in justice and that is close enough.
The problem is, justice is not going to look me into the eyes and say "The hay are you doing, girl?!"
Well, think of that little voice of conscience in your mind that says, "Is that really right?" Not when what you are doing is something you have been told is wrong, but when that deep-down feeling of injustice rises up in you, saying that what is happening is wrong, or at least not really right.
Cultivate that voice of conscience. It will guide you.
from what i can tell East, South and Southeast Asian religions tend to place a larger amount of emphasis on ritual than those in the West, is that accurate?
i do know that rites and etiquette are important in Confucianism, more so than in the teachings of ancient Greek philosophers
Confucius was described to me as a philosopher by a Chinese guy who i used to know, but that may have been for want of a more accurate English word
Well, ritual seems to be pretty important in many of the Christian services I have attended. Maybe I should pull in Buttercup and her Catholic viewpoint.
Anyway, Catholic viewpoint? Ritual is generally treated as extremely important, to the point that it's a chief point of contention in most historical schisms (Strict adherence to Latin mass until recent decades comes to mind). One thing that has to be taken into account though is that we have a rather tremendous in-practice ideological gulf between our laity and authority, to the point that doctrinal views on more abstract matters like that don't always hold.
Also, this from way back in page 1:
"According to folklore, the distinguishing feature of a hoop snake is that it can grasp its tail in its jaws and roll after its prey like a wheel,[2][1] thus looking somewhat like the ouroboros of Greek mythology, or Tsuchinoko (a legendary fat snake that can roll like a wheel) in Japan. In one version of the myth, the snake straightens out at the last second, skewering its victim with its venomous tail. The only escape is to hide behind a tree, which receives the deadly blow instead and promptly dies from the poison.[3]"
As I understand it confucianism started out as a philosophy of governance and social relations and over time kinda grew into something that had religious aspects?
Asian religions are not something i know a great deal about unfortunately, this is merely the understanding i have gained from some history textbooks...
Confucius's Analects arguments kinda hinges on the reader buying that the "Mandate of Heaven" is a thing, which is basically the Celestial Jade Emperor approving over this or that.
The nature of religion in China is very different from that of religion in the West, and has been basically since the beginning. There is a lot less of a focus on deity and faith, and a lot more on applied philosophy and... I guess you would say how religious arguments are framed, rather than the content thereof (although content is important). It's very pragmatic, much of the time.
At least, that's what I've gathered from what reading I've done Chinese history and religion, which isn't as much as I should like. I do know that religion in other East Asian countries is viewed pretty differently despite Chinese influence, especially in Japan.
Part of the issue is local customs and folk religion tend to supply the animistic beliefs and what have you. Confucianism and Taoism tend to coexist with these and don't need to add a ton of gods as they already exist.
Though you still have legends, like the 8 immortals and what have you.
I think that Western ritual focuses more on the connection to the divine, becoming closer to God.
Eastern ritual by contrast tends to focus more responsibility and social contract.
I dunno, I feel like I'm not explaining it properly.
I'd maybe argue there's still a reasoning that might tie with some aspect of the divine as to the responsibly and social contract part, but I don't think I'd disagree with you. The core of Confucianism and Daoism regards correct behavior in some form or another, where legends and other aspects tend to take a backseat.
Generally, for Russian people religion is closely linked to nationality. That is, it is a marker of national identity more than anything else. It is okay for everyone to be an atheist or follow Russian Orthodoxy, and it is considered okay for for nations within Russia to follow their "historical" religion (there are plenty of those, by the way. Various shamanistic beliefs in far east and Siberia, local versions of Islam at the near east, then there were Buddhists somewhere...), but people would look very oddly at someone who converts into a religion one is not born into (unless it's an atheist converting into one's "national" religion or Russian Orthodoxy). Interestingly enough, there seems to be an especial dislike reserved for non-Russian Orthodoxy versions of Christianity. They are seen, collectively, as "weird and dangerous sects", and mark one as "Not Russian".
My mom's cousin's mother-in-law (who was a friend of the family) was Ukrainian Catholic and fled Russia during Stalin's regime, literally carrying her dead sister across potato fields in the middle of winter.
I get the feeling that this hostility towards non-Orthodox Christians is not new.
Comments
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
If you're looking for a religion where God is a liberal, doesn't the free will defense cover the Problem of Evil? That gets you down to four points.
You mean the suffering caused by predation, parasitism, and disease? Animal free will.
Natural disasters? Maybe there are wills (gods) behind their material causes.
i consider myself a Christian, or a heretic if i'm being totally honest
That said, finding truth in other faiths is not something that is exclusive to any branch of Tengrism or neopaganism in general.
i'm not a hippy
i'm not taking offence here but i would like to know what you mean
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
no this is an improvement
I have my reasons, but I definitely did not want this thread to become about my beliefs or lack thereof.
My apologies
i do know that rites and etiquette are important in Confucianism, more so than in the teachings of ancient Greek philosophers
Confucius was described to me as a philosopher by a Chinese guy who i used to know, but that may have been for want of a more accurate English word
That being said, people are right, of course, in pointing out that deliberately seeking out a belief that matches one's existing convictions is hardly intellectually honest. I've been thinking pretty much the same thing for years, so I might as well go on with it, and say that I believe in justice and that is close enough.
The problem is, justice is not going to look me into the eyes and say "The hay are you doing, girl?!"
Eastern ritual by contrast tends to focus more responsibility and social contract.
I dunno, I feel like I'm not explaining it properly.
Anyway, Catholic viewpoint? Ritual is generally treated as extremely important, to the point that it's a chief point of contention in most historical schisms (Strict adherence to Latin mass until recent decades comes to mind). One thing that has to be taken into account though is that we have a rather tremendous in-practice ideological gulf between our laity and authority, to the point that doctrinal views on more abstract matters like that don't always hold.
Also, this from way back in page 1:
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis