you're also widening the goalposts here since we've gone from 'the ONLY WAY is through characters' to 'ok but apart from story and the experience of playing the game, the ONLY WAY is through characters'
but whatever
No, story isn't part of this. All I said was that the story and the world are intertwined, as both require compelling characters to be engaging.
As for the experience of a player, that was more of a concession than anything but it is in a lot of ways related to my initial point.
Interesting, maybe. I'd look at the design and say "Well, that's unique I guess." But I wouldn't have any reason to care except:
As someone who has played Skyrim, I've fought them.
This book, which presents a character in the way of an overly-enthusiastic author peddling out what is likely common knowledge as if it were some sort of secret.
So what was just a monster with a neat design is now a monster with a neat design that I care about because I was shown in some way how it affects characters.
okay
well that's you, again
that's not me
also 'i've fought them' is still nothing to do with characters anyway
Now if you'd said from the beginning that story requires compelling characters to be engaging, i wouldn't have contested it.
i would have wondered whether that's really the case, but since story tends to revolve around characters in at the very least the vast majority of instances, i don't really disagree with the general claim that you need to care about characters to care about stories.
And for the record, Skyrim has a world I can legitimately feel engaged in because of the characters. Do I care about the longstanding and bitter feud between the Greybeards and the Blades? Of course I do, because I've been given reason to care about members of both factions. Do I care that the mages of Winterhold are being held accountable for the town's collapse? Of course I do, because it's clearly demonstrated that most of them are good people. Do I care that Sovngarde is basically heaven for Nords? Of course I do, because the Nords constantly talk about how important Sovngarde is. Do I care that werewolves are forced into Hircine's portion of the afterlife? Of course I do, because I see that, for people like Kodlak Whitemane, the warmth and companionship of Sovngarde is what he immensely prefers but doesn't know of any way to cure his lycanthropy.
And what of the visuals? The music? The shape of the landscape? The creatures? The climate? Those are all aspects of the world presented to the player.
Interesting, maybe. I'd look at the design and say "Well, that's unique I guess." But I wouldn't have any reason to care except:
As someone who has played Skyrim, I've fought them.
This book, which presents a character in the way of an overly-enthusiastic author peddling out what is likely common knowledge as if it were some sort of secret.
So what was just a monster with a neat design is now a monster with a neat design that I care about because I was shown in some way how it affects characters.
okay
well that's you, again
that's not me
Then what does make you care about a fictional world? Not interested in, what makes you invested in a fictional world?
also 'i've fought them' is still nothing to do with characters anyway
It creates a personal experience which leads to investment, which leads to caring about the world. I could've expressed it better but that's really what I meant by the initial statement. For other mediums though, the only way to foster that kind of investment is through characters.
And what of the visuals? The music? The shape of the landscape? The creatures? The climate? Those are all aspects of the world presented to the player.
What does this painting mean to you?
It's pretty, but what does it mean to you, really?
And that's not to say stuff like visuals aren't important or valuable. Just that if I have no reason to care about what I'm presented with, well, I'm not going to care about it. And visuals alone aren't a reason to care.
Well, in the case of Skyrim (and Zelda, which Imi mentioned) all that stuff i just listed contributes considerably to my investment in the setting.
As for other media, i disagree entirely. Look at Avatar: story is boring as shit but Pandora was so compelling that some viewers really wanted to live there, to the point of becoming seriously depressed over it.
Well, in the case of Skyrim (and Zelda, which Imi mentioned) all that stuff i just listed contributes considerably to my investment in the setting.
As for other media, i disagree entirely. Look at Avatar: story is boring as shit but Pandora was so compelling that some viewers really wanted to live there, to the point of becoming seriously depressed over it.
I haven't seen Avatar but I can guarantee the only reason the world's unique design mattered to anyone was because it was properly established why it mattered to the characters.
you can't just throw a random painting at somebody and go 'what does this mean to you?' i've never even seen it before, and i've never been big on paintings, let alone landscape paintings specifically.
it's impressive. it kind of makes me wish i were there in the world it depicts, which ought to count for something. the artist captured the shapes of clouds and the surface of the water in a way that's very convincing.
Well, in the case of Skyrim (and Zelda, which Imi mentioned) all that stuff i just listed contributes considerably to my investment in the setting.
As for other media, i disagree entirely. Look at Avatar: story is boring as shit but Pandora was so compelling that some viewers really wanted to live there, to the point of becoming seriously depressed over it.
I haven't seen Avatar but I can guarantee the only reason the world's unique design mattered to anyone was because it was properly established why it mattered to the characters.
Well, in the case of Skyrim (and Zelda, which Imi mentioned) all that stuff i just listed contributes considerably to my investment in the setting.
As for other media, i disagree entirely. Look at Avatar: story is boring as shit but Pandora was so compelling that some viewers really wanted to live there, to the point of becoming seriously depressed over it.
I haven't seen Avatar but I can guarantee the only reason the world's unique design mattered to anyone was because it was properly established why it mattered to the characters.
And that's the problem with a good deal of Morrowind's backstory. It's the equivalent of throwing a random painting at someone and expecting them to care.
and no, you didn't give me any special reason to care about that painting, but then, forming a personal investment in a work of art takes time, so i don't feel that this proves anything whatsoever
i'm getting kind of sick of this
frankly i'm not convinced this is worth talking about; you're making absurd guarantees about things you obviously know nothing about
frankly i'm not convinced this is worth talking about; you're making absurd guarantees about things you obviously know nothing about
I never made any pretense about having watched Avatar, and "people care about the world of Avatar because the care about the characters" isn't even remotely absurd.
the characters are forgettable and bland and have nothing to do with Pandora itself
i already supplied you with reasons (reasons other than gameplay, mind you) for forming investment
in reality of course reasons tend to be more personal than just liking any one aspect, but then you're delving into the psychology and lived experiences of the reader, and that's not intrinsic to any given work of fiction
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
Okay so here's the deal.
I can get pretty attached to things in a fictional universe. Things that don't always have a good story attached to them.
Like...there was that hentai comic I posted here a while ago that just made me ask so many questions about its world. And they were good questions. I'll never get an answer, and it was pornography, so you can bet that it was nowhere near a good story. But the questions. The questions were intriguing. I'm still trying to think of satisfactory answers.
This pattern repeats itself with works whose worlds interests me, but the story itself does not (like Legend of Korra, for example. How did cultural standards change between Last Airbender and Korra?)
My experience with Skyrim was that yes, there are interesting things going on in the story and the world. But I really had a hard time caring because I felt like a robot and nothing seemed to have any weight. Why should I care about my companion if I can weigh them down to the gills in treasure and just bring them back to life when they bite it?
Also Avatar was manipulative, overwrought, and extravagant garbage. Nothing had any true weight. Nothing meant anything. But because of how nice everything looked, because I was sitting in a theater with all the music and images assaulting me, I fell for it and actually felt something.
I still hate myself for doing that.
EDIT: Basically my point is that in theory, investment comes in one or two ways. But in practice, it works in totally arbitrary ways.
So what you're saying is that it's entirely possible to form an investment in a world in spite of never being given a reason to? And that's all well in good, whatever, no wrong opinions and all that. But being expected to care about an aspect of a work while being given no reason to is a flaw. Plain and simple.
Every weakness is a strength in a different context. And vice-versa.
Nothing is plain.
Nothing is simple.
You may be right but I'm struggling to come up with a context where expecting the audience to care without giving them a reason to could ever be a strength.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
And there are things that I expect that I have to experience in a detached state of mind.
Things like watching Dredd, or playing Saints Row games, or Shadow Warrior. I go into these things fully expecting part-visceral experiences, and part-understanding viewpoints because I can see things from a detached perspective.
And there are things that I expect that I have to experience in a detached state of mind.
Things like watching Dredd, or playing Saints Row, or Little Inferno, or Shadow Warrior.
I think you misunderstood. The original statement was "Expecting the audience to care without giving them a reason to is a flaw." I was saying that the expectation was what made it a flaw.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
Oh! Then I definitely misunderstood. There are a few answers to that statement.
1) Sure, it's a flaw. But we're talking about it now, and there are interesting answers. So in the long run, it's not a flaw. For us, it is a strength.
2) Sure, it's a flaw. But art is not make-or-break on one aspect alone. Technical prowess, interesting things to say, evocative styles, even the mere presence of novelty can make something a success.
3) Sure, it's a flaw. But can any of us with absolute conviction say that it was not intended? Only the word of the creators holds any water in this matter.
Oh! Then I definitely misunderstood. There are a few answers to that statement.
1) Sure, it's a flaw. But we're talking about it now, and there are interesting answers. So in the long run, it's not a flaw. For us, it is a strength.
2) Sure, it's a flaw. But art is not make-or-break on one aspect alone. Technical prowess, interesting things to say, evocative styles, even the mere presence of novelty can make something a success.
I'm not disagreeing. I mean, Morrowind, the game that brought this up in the first place, is a game that still holds a special place in my heart. But it didn't do enough to make me care about the world, so I didn't really.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
Really though the heart of this...quarrel is that you keep using absolutes and guarantees and certainties. You can't do that, because nothing is certain, nothing is absolute. We define certain things as certainties because it gives us faith or something to attach to, and we define other things as absolutes because that's as close as we can understand it. And both approaches are not entirely wrong, but also not entirely right.
And the world of art and media - which is shaped entirely by the most mercurial of things, human desires and thoughts - is even more uncertain. There's never a right answer, there's just an answer that works either right now or for you.
Really though the heart of this...quarrel is that you keep using absolutes and guarantees and certainties. You can't do that, because nothing is certain, nothing is absolute. We define certain things as certainties because it gives us faith or something to attach to, and we define other things as absolutes because that's as close as we can understand it. And both approaches are not entirely wrong, but also not entirely right.
And the world of art and media - which is shaped entirely by the most mercurial of things, human desires and thoughts - is even more uncertain. There's never a right answer, there's just an answer that works either right now or for you.
I'm aware of that, and I'm not a huge fan of absolutism, but characters are the very most important part of any story. It is almost impossible to have a good story or an engaging world if your characters don't work.
So, during one of my late-night panicked reveries, I picked up Don't Starve in the middle of a Steam sale.
The closest game that I can compare it to is Terraria, in that it focuses on randomly generated worlds and exploration. But while Terraria's more focused on customizability and cool weapons, Don't Starve is 100% about survival. Every tool, weapon and armor-piece can deteriorate with repeated use. Building a permanent camp will take you at least a day, and if you place it too far away from a food source, moving it can be difficult. You can't make a proper weapon until you can build a crafting station (which can't be moved once it's placed), and that can take you days if you spawn in a place without mining rocks. And that's just the Sandbox Mode. Getting to the game's actual plot requires you to survive long enough to find the special doorway, which can be anywhere on the map.
Don't get me wrong. It's a ton of fun. But it's also pretty freaking hardcore.
Comments
okay
well that's you, again
that's not me
also 'i've fought them' is still nothing to do with characters anyway
i would have wondered whether that's really the case, but since story tends to revolve around characters in at the very least the vast majority of instances, i don't really disagree with the general claim that you need to care about characters to care about stories.
As for other media, i disagree entirely. Look at Avatar: story is boring as shit but Pandora was so compelling that some viewers really wanted to live there, to the point of becoming seriously depressed over it.
it's impressive. it kind of makes me wish i were there in the world it depicts, which ought to count for something. the artist captured the shapes of clouds and the surface of the water in a way that's very convincing.
don't make guarantees like that!
and no, you didn't give me any special reason to care about that painting, but then, forming a personal investment in a work of art takes time, so i don't feel that this proves anything whatsoever
i'm getting kind of sick of this
frankly i'm not convinced this is worth talking about; you're making absurd guarantees about things you obviously know nothing about
I never made any pretense about having watched Avatar, and "people care about the world of Avatar because the care about the characters" isn't even remotely absurd.
i already supplied you with reasons (reasons other than gameplay, mind you) for forming investment
in reality of course reasons tend to be more personal than just liking any one aspect, but then you're delving into the psychology and lived experiences of the reader, and that's not intrinsic to any given work of fiction
relatedly i think i am done talking about this
visuals
music
various other design aspects specific to the work in question
symbolism and ideas
i have mentioned all of these things already
how many do i have to give before you will accept one of them as valid?
congratulations on winning the argument
i cannot bring myself to read another word on this stupid subject
o_o
I'm not disagreeing. I mean, Morrowind, the game that brought this up in the first place, is a game that still holds a special place in my heart. But it didn't do enough to make me care about the world, so I didn't really.
i beat the game and the plot got even crappier tho
It's a cool game tho.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead