It’s frustrating seeing all the love and attention people like Michael Kirkbride gave to Morrowind because, let’s be honest with ourselves here, Morrowind was a horrendously designed game. And that made it really hard to care about the thought put into the worldbuilding.
In a fight between worldbuilding and compelling characterization, compelling characterization always wins. The only way a viewer can care about a world is through its characters, and that’s why even though Oblivion and Skyrim were, on the whole, less unique worlds than Morrowind, they still “work” better because they get you to care about the worlds through interesting characters.
The only way a viewer can care about a world is through its characters
nope
The most important step to creating a compelling narrative or world is through characters. Period. If your characters are bad, your story is bad, and no one will care about the world you've made.
The only way a viewer can care about a world is through its characters
nope
The most important step to creating a compelling narrative or world is through characters. Period. If your characters are bad, your story is bad, and no one will care about the world you've made.
Characters are the lens through which a world is viewed. You can create the most beautifully complex world ever but the only way you're going to make people care is through characters.
The only way a viewer can care about a world is through its characters
nope
The most important step to creating a compelling narrative or world is through characters. Period. If your characters are bad, your story is bad, and no one will care about the world you've made.
nope
Then provide a counterpoint. Don't just say "nope." I don't like being condescended to.
i'm not trying to be condescending, i just really hate sweeping statements about how fiction is to be received
the characters are part of the world, so 'entirely independently of its characters' is probably going too far, but the characters are not the only things a reader may appreciate a story for
characters are probably the most popular, but there are innumerable other things that can draw gamers into a game world
in fact i'd say it's probably more true that audiences can engage with the world for other reasons in the case of video games than non-interactive audiovisual media, since the player gets to explore the game world themselves without the need for a surrogate set of eyes to drive the story (the PC generally not being much of a character, at least not in a game like Morrowind)
i'm not trying to be condescending, i just really hate sweeping statements about how fiction is to be received
the characters are part of the world, so 'entirely independently of its characters' is probably going too far, but the characters are not the only things a reader may appreciate a story for
I wasn't saying that characters are the only worthwhile aspect of stories, just that they're the most important for drawing people in. You have to foster a relationship with the viewer/player/reader/etc. before you can expect them to care about the intricacies of a world.
Games are somewhat different in that you can technically draw a player in with stuff like a mysterious atmosphere or, well, good game design, but ultimately worldbuilding almost always relies on characters.
And actually Morrowind is a really good example for why characters are so important to worldbuilding because- in spite of how intricate and interesting the world may be- I really can't force myself to care about much more than the surface level of it because it has so few compelling characters, and the initial "fish out of water" feeling can only go so far. The question is, why should I care about the effects of imperialism on the natives of Vvardenfell if I can't feel how it affects anyone?
2. 'the effects of imperialism on the natives of Vvardenfell' is something that entirely concerns characters: the effects of characters' actions on other characters
audiences usually care about characters the most, but not everyone does
you are generalizing about how fictional worlds are to be received, and i think that's wrong
And again, I ask you to come up with one narrative that capable of drawing you into a world without compelling characters. I don't like broad generalizations about storytelling either, but the idea that characters are the most important aspect of a good story is very important.
The only way a viewer can be drawn into a world aside from compelling characters that I can think of is through a desire to learn more, and unless it's a video game (where having a protagonist with virtually no personality is a viable option) virtually the only way to make someone want to learn more is through creating compelling characters. I challenge you to think of one example where this isn't the case.
I really can't force myself to care about much more than the surface level of it because it has so few compelling characters
See, you're implying that this is a matter of personal taste but you're not actually providing any sort of counterpoint. Which makes it feel like I'm just being attacked.
2. 'the effects of imperialism on the natives of Vvardenfell' is something that entirely concerns characters: the effects of characters' actions on other characters
there is more to the world than that
I'm not going to come up with a bunch of examples of worldbuilding tidbits I don't care about because that's not going to get me anywhere.
you're making assumptions about what other people should care about based on what you care about
you're all like 'i challenge you to find ONE example' but the only example of an aspect of the fictional world that you've given is one that's entirely character-based
so what you're asking appears to boil down to 'how can you expect audiences to care about characters if they don't care about the characters?'
you're making assumptions about what other people should care about based on what you care about
I'm not trying to dictate what people are and aren't allowed to care about. I'm just stating what appears to be true about fiction in general from where I stand, and putting on the pretense of "well it's just my opinion" is pointless.
you're all like 'i challenge you to find ONE example' but the only example of an aspect of the fictional world that you've given is one that's entirely character-based
Because those are the only ones capable of having any meaning, period. Like, if I were to present you with a world where the trees walk, well, why would you care? I mean, maybe it's a neat concept, but in what capacity does it resonate or really mean something? That's why characters are important. They're what infuse meaning into a world or story.
And that's also why I told you to come up with an example, because I sure as hell can't think of any time I've found a world interesting if I couldn't care about the characters.
I'm not saying they're not different things, I'm saying that unless you're writing some sort of fictional encyclopedia, the story is how the world is viewed so you can't separate them.
I'm not saying they're not different things, I'm saying that unless you're writing some sort of fictional encyclopedia, the story is how the world is viewed so you can't separate them.
You can separate them enough to make the distinction, so you can separate them enough to appreciate them independently of one another. Story tends not to matter very much in video games unless it's something really story-driven like The Last of Us. The story in Morrowind is not usually the draw.
I'm not saying they're not different things, I'm saying that unless you're writing some sort of fictional encyclopedia, the story is how the world is viewed so you can't separate them.
You can separate them enough to make the distinction, so you can separate them enough to appreciate them independently of one another. Story tends not to matter very much in video games unless it's something really story-driven like The Last of Us. The story in Morrowind is not usually the draw.
Okay, but if something like the world is the draw, why would someone care about it? What would compel a person to care about the game's world?
clever symbolism? commentary on real life? it looks really cool?
i don't know, how much analysis do you want here? i mean you're asking about a pretty deep aspect of human nature and i don't know the answer to why some things are interesting and other things aren't
A cliff racer. A pterodactyl-like creature that inhabits the island of Vvardenfell. They have finely tuned senses and can spot prey long before they've been detected.
But what of that basic, character-free description could possibly compel you to care about cliff racers? You might find it mildly interesting, but if that's all you got, then there's nothing compelling or resonant about it.
"Jiub was the protagonist's fellow prisoner at the beginning of Morrowind, but his name is all that is known of him. When the protagonist sets out on their adventure, they are often attacked by cliff racers, initially a great threat but by a few hours in are more of an ever-present nuisance. Dialogue in Oblivion reveals that Jiub, the mysterious prisoner, actually became a saint since leaving prison and drove the cliff racers from Vvardenfell."
Obviously you're not going to care that much because I didn't actually take the time to develop the characters, but that provides something of a narrative framework and a reason to care about why cliff racers exist.
and it's a game so there's like the whole experience of fighting the things
And admittedly, that is where there's something of a grey area, in that games almost always lead to something of a personal connection, but in the case of games I'd say there at least has to be an associated experience for something to matter, if that makes any sense.
i'm going to talk about Frost Trolls since i'm a lot more personally invested in Skyrim, having played it myself
so for one thing, look at this motherfucker right here
are you trying to tell me that's not an example of compelling design
the third eye? the monkeylike characteristics? the spikes?
and that's just the visuals
are you aware, for instance, that the reason fire damages trolls more than anything else is because the continuous tissue damage inhibits their supernatural healing abilities? that's an interesting detail
you're also widening the goalposts here since we've gone from 'the ONLY WAY is through characters' to 'ok but apart from story and the experience of playing the game, the ONLY WAY is through characters'
Interesting, maybe. I'd look at the design and say "Well, that's unique I guess." But I wouldn't have any reason to care except:
As someone who has played Skyrim, I've fought them.
This book, which presents a character in the way of an overly-enthusiastic author peddling out what is likely common knowledge as if it were some sort of secret.
So what was just a monster with a neat design is now a monster with a neat design that I care about because I was shown in some way how it affects characters.
Comments
I know his series makes this very obvious but Kratos is freakin' scary
goddamn dude
the characters are part of the world, so 'entirely independently of its characters' is probably going too far, but the characters are not the only things a reader may appreciate a story for
characters are probably the most popular, but there are innumerable other things that can draw gamers into a game world
audiences usually care about characters the most, but not everyone does
you are generalizing about how fictional worlds are to be received, and i think that's wrong
2. 'the effects of imperialism on the natives of Vvardenfell' is something that entirely concerns characters: the effects of characters' actions on other characters
there is more to the world than that
you're making assumptions about what other people should care about based on what you care about
you're all like 'i challenge you to find ONE example' but the only example of an aspect of the fictional world that you've given is one that's entirely character-based
so what you're asking appears to boil down to 'how can you expect audiences to care about characters if they don't care about the characters?'
i've seen videos online and i've played Oblivion and Skyrim, though
in answer to your second question, cliff racers
for example
fair point, but i thought we were talking about fictional worlds here
stories are another kettle of fish altogether
nope
they are different things
read E.M. Forster
being interested in the story is not a prerequisite in order to care about those things
i gave you one specific example, Morrowind
it's not an 'exception' because that would imply that what you are saying is true and we wouldn't be having this argument
You can separate them enough to make the distinction, so you can separate them enough to appreciate them independently of one another. Story tends not to matter very much in video games unless it's something really story-driven like The Last of Us. The story in Morrowind is not usually the draw.
i dunno man, what causes people to be interested in anything? that's some philosophical shit
i don't know, how much analysis do you want here? i mean you're asking about a pretty deep aspect of human nature and i don't know the answer to why some things are interesting and other things aren't
and it's a game so there's like the whole experience of fighting the things
that's about story
i'm going to talk about Frost Trolls since i'm a lot more personally invested in Skyrim, having played it myself
so for one thing, look at this motherfucker right here
are you trying to tell me that's not an example of compelling design
the third eye? the monkeylike characteristics? the spikes?
and that's just the visuals
are you aware, for instance, that the reason fire damages trolls more than anything else is because the continuous tissue damage inhibits their supernatural healing abilities? that's an interesting detail
but whatever