>Obviously they didn't cook up the idea of antinatalism, but a great deal of what I've read does make it seem like the idea doesn't really come from a well thought out notion that there's a negative quality to birth.
Of course it doesn't. If you don't accept the premise that all pleasure is the result of deprivation being nullified, and/or you don't accept the further premise that "deprivation" is some dreadful thing that devalues everything good in life, most of their arguments completely fall apart. Much of the rest appears to just be taking scientific theories or familiar philosophical positions and saying "Isn't this horrific/disgusting/depressing?" - to which the honest answer is generally "No." On the whole, it's all very silly.
The more obnoxious ones tend to do things like compare reproduction to genocide (and consequently condemn any and all parents with according severity) or generalize everyone who doesn't feel the same as them as being mindless sheep. This is the point where, for me, they go from "holds a weird philosophical position" to "is a seriously horrible person". But I find that more obnoxious than amusing; after a while it just gets repetitive.
If you find these people funny I don't really have a problem with you laughing at them (in the same way that I don't hate PYF for laughing at various idiots on the Internet), but I don't personally see any reason to pay them any attention unless they say anything interesting, which as far as I've seen they basically never do.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
I, personally, wouldn't say I find any of them funny, per se.
Though, some of the writing does tend to illicit some sort of response, as I mentioned.
It's sort of more a "really, guys? Really?"
Though the amount of attention I pay is skimming their articles at best.
My brain shuts down if I try to watch really annoying YouTube videos. I think it's a defense mechanism to minimalize the amount of negative life experiences I have. :P
Wow, this thread really exploded while I was sleeping.
I want to say that there are some Antinatalists I don't make fun of. The ones who are more obviously depressed, I avoid, as well as the more sane, grounded ones.
" I've been reading this group of blogs since about the end of December. Although a convinced antinatalist for a few years, it's been by reading yours, Karl, and the other bloggers' ponderings that I really perceived the pointlesness and meaningless of existence beyond all hopes and illusions.
I gradually became aware I acquired this anhedonia thing. Actually it's a HUGE state of confusion like I've never found myself in before! I have lost interest in all hobbies and pastimes and in the company of others, be it personal or social. I'm not taking it lightly - I'm actually panic stricken at it and my bain processor has been occupied for weeks with franically trying to think up a way out of this whole anhedonia thing. I concluded in my journal earlier today that a way out does not exist and all I'm left with is to see what happens if I just stay like this.
I spend much of my day blankly looking at the walls, trees or into the air with an empty mind slightly confused about "what to do" while unable to feel the slightest drive to do anything. This wouldn't be much of a drama if it weren't becoming unsustainable for my material confort and untimately survival on a longer term.
I was just wondering yesterday: "Has my suffering, my state of mental discomfort, increased since starting to read these antinatalist blogs? Or was I suffering just as much before, but was not fully aware of it due to distractions by varius hopes and ambitions (plus the suffering inherent to these)?"
Discussion time: Are these blogs and videos actually harmful?
To someone that's already depressed and looking for things that reinforce their world view? Yes, definitely. This can be as bad as joining a gang or a cult, psychologically.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
^ This.
The post you mentioned is from someone clearly suffering from depression, but now he has sources telling hi, that the world is really like that and enforcing a view that there's simply nothing he can do. Otherwise, that person might seek help for that depression.
And, nothing personal, Odradek, but you should know that these posts can get under your skin, even if the argument isn't that great.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
"Yeah but I thought I might be the exception."
I'd imagine many people would have negative reactions based on their state of mind at the time of reading it. You have the benefit of being much more knowledgeable about philosophy and logic, but I'd imagine many readers would absorb what was being said and not see the gaping flaws.
I remember Aidan. He somehow managed to make smug Internet Nietzscheans seem normal by comparison. >I'd imagine many people would have negative reactions based on their state of mind at the time of reading it.
CulturalPhilistine kind of freaked me out, not because I found anything he said at all convincing, but because he just seemed such a horrifyingly awful and depressing person.
Also, that ghastly nails-on-chalkboard whisper of his.
Well technically it isn't, because "suffering" is kind of an imprecise translation of "dukkha" and a lot of other things Aondeug could explain better than me.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
" Buddhism is awesome. Of course, I´m not talking about the religion buddhism, that some people follow, you know,religiously. I´m not talking about following blindly the ideas of a priest, whoever the priest is, of whatever religion he defends."
Oh Jesus Buddha, yes, you're special, and you're not a sheep, and you know so much, and you deserve all the blow jobs, all of them, now please go off and die in a fire.
At least these creeps aren't breeding.
The rest was also short sited crap. As mentioned Dukkha is much more complex than that, and even if you translate it as suffering, that doesn't mean Buddhism assigns a negative value to birth.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Second ALSO thinks Buddhis "philosophy" is swell, but thinks things the religion is somehow full of things the Buddha never taught.
Notice how I didn't title this "Buddhism is garbage"; while stupid, Buddhism and its various sects often have nothing to do with what the Buddha actually taught, making them far less attractive as targets for critique. For example, the following were not part of the original teachings of the Buddha, yet are often essential to modern Buddhist practice:
1. Monastic hierarchy
2. Arbitrary rituals and customs (e.g. shaving one's head, wearing a robe, reciting formalized chants)
3. Forbidding sex (obviously in direct opposition to the Buddha's conception of the Middle Path)
4. Reincarnation; "seeing" past lives; dualism
5. Compassion for non-sentient life (e.g. trees and possibly insects)
...and, most importantly:
6. "Isms," or treating ideas as groups to be generalized, "converted" to, etc.
Did you actually READ anything the Buddha taught or take a class on this or ANYTHING, Or do you just think the Buddha wrote a three page pamphlet on the four Noble truths?
"Buddhism is awesome. Of course, I´m not talking about the religion buddhism, that some people follow, you know,religiously. I´m not talking about following blindly the ideas of a priest, whoever the priest is, of whatever religion he defends."
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
I remember stumbling on some bizarre article from an atheist about how there was a split in their group because one member was basically all about the holocaust denial and he took some members with him.
Furthermore, among the philosophers they admire, Schopenhauer was an anti-semite who became Hitler's favorite philosopher, Emil Cioran supported the Nazi party in his youth, and Lovecraft(shut up, I know he was a writer for the most part) is famous for his racism.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
^ I think that's a sort of common reaction and a problem with their "movement", the members seem less like mindful philosophers and more like annoying whiners that need to get laid and/or smoke some weed and chill-out.
Comments
Of course it doesn't. If you don't accept the premise that all pleasure is the result of deprivation being nullified, and/or you don't accept the further premise that "deprivation" is some dreadful thing that devalues everything good in life, most of their arguments completely fall apart. Much of the rest appears to just be taking scientific theories or familiar philosophical positions and saying "Isn't this horrific/disgusting/depressing?" - to which the honest answer is generally "No." On the whole, it's all very silly.
The more obnoxious ones tend to do things like compare reproduction to genocide (and consequently condemn any and all parents with according severity) or generalize everyone who doesn't feel the same as them as being mindless sheep. This is the point where, for me, they go from "holds a weird philosophical position" to "is a seriously horrible person". But I find that more obnoxious than amusing; after a while it just gets repetitive.
If you find these people funny I don't really have a problem with you laughing at them (in the same way that I don't hate PYF for laughing at various idiots on the Internet), but I don't personally see any reason to pay them any attention unless they say anything interesting, which as far as I've seen they basically never do.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
I want to say that there are some Antinatalists I don't make fun of. The ones who are more obviously depressed, I avoid, as well as the more sane, grounded ones.
By the way, new Derived Energy video.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Actually, that summarizes quite a lot of DE's output.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
I've been reading this group of blogs since about the end of December. Although a convinced antinatalist for a few years, it's been by reading yours, Karl, and the other bloggers' ponderings that I really perceived the pointlesness and meaningless of existence beyond all hopes and illusions.
I gradually became aware I acquired this anhedonia thing. Actually it's a HUGE state of confusion like I've never found myself in before! I have lost interest in all hobbies and pastimes and in the company of others, be it personal or social. I'm not taking it lightly - I'm actually panic stricken at it and my bain processor has been occupied for weeks with franically trying to think up a way out of this whole anhedonia thing. I concluded in my journal earlier today that a way out does not exist and all I'm left with is to see what happens if I just stay like this.
I spend much of my day blankly looking at the walls, trees or into the air with an empty mind slightly confused about "what to do" while unable to feel the slightest drive to do anything. This wouldn't be much of a drama if it weren't becoming unsustainable for my material confort and untimately survival on a longer term.
I was just wondering yesterday: "Has my suffering, my state of mental discomfort, increased since starting to read these antinatalist blogs? Or was I suffering just as much before, but was not fully aware of it due to distractions by varius hopes and ambitions (plus the suffering inherent to these)?"
Discussion time: Are these blogs and videos actually harmful?
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
tl;dr Sooner or later my big brother neuroscience is going to come along and beat you all up.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
☭ B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ ⚢
☭ B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ ⚢
☭ B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ ⚢
☭ B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ ⚢
>I'd imagine many people would have negative reactions based on their state of mind at the time of reading it.
CulturalPhilistine kind of freaked me out, not because I found anything he said at all convincing, but because he just seemed such a horrifyingly awful and depressing person.
Also, that ghastly nails-on-chalkboard whisper of his.
did you seriously just use that phrase unironically.
Well technically it isn't, because "suffering" is kind of an imprecise translation of "dukkha" and a lot of other things Aondeug could explain better than me.
☭ B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ ⚢
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
None of those sound pleasant.
Ooh, except "todo"
that's so fun to say
todo todo todotodotodotodotodotodo
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
I am reminded of Kriegsaffe.
"So we all agree that the Holocaust was a Zionist hoax, right? :D"
"N*GGA WUT"
Furthermore, among the philosophers they admire, Schopenhauer was an anti-semite who became Hitler's favorite philosopher, Emil Cioran supported the Nazi party in his youth, and Lovecraft(shut up, I know he was a writer for the most part) is famous for his racism.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
☭ B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ ⚢
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
She is one of the more reserved, reasonable, measured antinatalists.
Coincidence? I think not!
OH GOD NO BOREDOM
What a terrible world this is, that we may be visited by the dread demon boredom!
The movie "Gerry" should be outlawed and all algebra teachers must be put to death!
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis