I have to wonder where this whole "I wish I had a little sister so I could make them my waifu" thing came from. Are there really teenage guys that are that desperate for attention?
Lucky Star is basically anime!Seinfeld, yes, although the character designs and stereotypes definitely play on moe culture for the sake of humour. K-On! is... well, it's not a sappy drama, but it's definitely pandering to that crowd. When I think of the sleazy side of moe, though, I generally think of stuff like Kanon or a lot of the carbon copy tripe that bubbles up from the void each year.
I feel like K-On! is sort of a special case. Based solely on certain fan behavior and the first season, I can totally see why somebody would think it is pandering. That said, if you were to separate it from people's general views about cutesy Japanese animated shows about high school girls and aired it on U.S. TV, I think a lot of people would see it as a show targeted at girls. The relative lack of fanservice in the second season and movie would seem to support that idea as would the fact that the show is basically about friendship and J-pop more than anything else.
You are right that the series is apparently targeted at the adult male "otaku" demographic. Yet, when K-On!, Kiniro Mosaic, Lucky Star, and shows of that ilk are marketed and sold in North America, the DVD covers and promotional material seem to emphasize the female frendship part of the shows over the "this show was made to pander to adult male otakus" part.
At the end of the day, I think it would probably be better if people just took those kinds of shows at face value. I do not see much of a reason to care a whole lot about what the target demographic of a show was in Japan when that does not have much meaning outside of that country. I can totally get behind being annoyed with fanservice and creepy content in a show itself, but it seems unfair to me to judge a show solely based on what label it happened to fall under in Japan.
I tend to agree with you about Kanon, Air, and other anime based off of dating sim type visual novels. In my opinion, Clannad (especially the second season) is pretty decent as far as those go, but it certainly has its share of problematic characterizations, plots, and the like. I would definitely not consider it the masterpiece it is sometimes made out to be. The depiction of women in those and similar shows bugs me, in large part because of the power dynamic you mentioned and the frequent invocation of traditional gender norms.
I just finished the ninth episode of Haibane Renmei and I am definitely going to be watching the rest of this when I wake up.
It is deep. It is really deep and really subtle and completely engaging without being hard to follow in the least. This is truly exceptional storytelling and there is so much heart to it. I love this.
I loved Haibane Renmei. I'm going to second that for anyone who hasn't watched it yet. It's beautiful and melancholy. Hard-Boiled Wonderland is great as well, though... it's not much like Haibane even if I can see the (rather obvious) parallels. Just as a warning, assuming you were commenting on that because of Haibane.
I also really enjoyed looking through that art book link :D
leorio punching ging was the greatest thing ever god bless
Yeah it was. I really enjoyed that arc as a whole, but that was a great moment.
Isn't it just?
I'm really sad about Hunter X Hunter ending. But given how the past two episodes have gone, I'm glad we're ending on a good note. Not the best note, not without many issues still being unresolved (which is why I'll be starting over again on the manga!), but a good note nonetheless.
I've got a lot of feelings on Hunter X Hunter. Unfortunately I'm both ready for a nap as I type this, and not good at explaining myself.
I’m under the impression that a lot of western fans hold Ghibli films to a standard that borders on eastern exotification. They lack a lot of cultural context, as do I, but they dismiss the work as “deep” rather than understand that they are simply filling in holes with “whoa that’s deep man” and realizing “I don’t entirely know what this means or alludes to because I lack the cultural perspective”, and it’s very troubling tbh.
it’s REALLY difficult to discuss this on here because it’s very nuanced and keeping things brief leaves me open to coming off as over-simplistic and elitist (“haha stupid weeaboos dont understand the media they consume”), but really, I just get a very bad vibe from the people that just eat up whatever Miyazaki/Ghibli puts out without much thought.
I mean if I try to explain why Howl’s Moving Castle didn’t resonate with me (technical stuff and animation aside), I will get people on my ass telling me things like “you just don’t get it. it’s SURREAL and stuff. LOOK AT THE ANIMATION” without any attempt at comprehensibly analyzing the work. It’s a matter of ” just take my word for it!” and that’s so uncomfortable. :s
I’m under the impression that a lot of western fans hold Ghibli films to a standard that borders on eastern exotification. They lack a lot of cultural context, as do I, but they dismiss the work as “deep” rather than understand that they are simply filling in holes with “whoa that’s deep man” and realizing “I don’t entirely know what this means or alludes to because I lack the cultural perspective”, and it’s very troubling tbh.
it’s REALLY difficult to discuss this on here because it’s very nuanced and keeping things brief leaves me open to coming off as over-simplistic and elitist (“haha stupid weeaboos dont understand the media they consume”), but really, I just get a very bad vibe from the people that just eat up whatever Miyazaki/Ghibli puts out without much thought.
I mean if I try to explain why Howl’s Moving Castle didn’t resonate with me (technical stuff and animation aside), I will get people on my ass telling me things like “you just don’t get it. it’s SURREAL and stuff. LOOK AT THE ANIMATION” without any attempt at comprehensibly analyzing the work. It’s a matter of ” just take my word for it!” and that’s so uncomfortable. :s
The post implies that the person speaking doesn't trust anyone who likes Studio Ghibli films because they fear they might be liking them "for the wrong reasons".
That is elitist and stupid. Especially when the person is admitting that they're not any more knowledgeable about the subject than the people they're criticizing.
Sometimes there is nothing better to understand, and sometimes people simply don't have the desire to understand anything better.
Also literally no one actually says "whoa that's deep" verbatim. Nobody says that. No one has said that ever. It's one of those things that people think other people say all the time but nobody actually says.
Like that post actually makes me angry, there is so much about it that is stupid and presumptious.
If you are not Japanese (and the person in question seems to indicate they're not) what right do you have to tell people they're appreciating a piece of Japanese media "the wrong way"?
And how are you going to accuse others of being ignorant when
LOOK AT THE ANIMATION
is somehow a criticism-worthy statement for you? Animation is an artform and if you're going to mock someone for appreciating it all that shows is that you're the idiot.
I think the thing that bothers me the most though is this thin veneer of politeness that's hiding the implication that, because the film didn't "resonate" with the writer "personally", if everyone could just THINK FOR THEMSELVES instead of being MINDLESS SHEEP we would see that Howl's Moving Castle is ACTUALLY ONLY OKAY instead of BEING PRETTY GOOD
i guess i don't know what the post is trying to say since i've never run into anybody telling me that my not liking howl's moving castle much* is dumb because I need to look at the animation. so it's probably a bad idea for me to guess at the motives of such people or of responders to them e.g. the post-er
I really have a hard time reading posts like that as anything but "I'm smarter than you, nyeeeerr". Maybe it is reflective of my experience on the internet, maybe I have simply grown jaded, but that is how I see it.
What the person is talking about is this weird attitude that some people have with Studio Ghibli and Japanese media in general that defends anything that doesn't work as being "a cultural thing" as if that immediately dismisses all criticism. Generally this tends to be used to defend things with a lot less merit than even the weakest of Ghibli's films, but it's definitely a thing that some people do.
Also it's not like this person is dismissing animation as an art form: They explicitly mention that Howl's Moving Castle worked for them on a technical level but not otherwise, thus rendering a counterargument like "look at the animation, damnit!" pretty condescending. It's like saying that clearly this element that this person admitted to liking should make up for everything that they didn't like.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
Like I've heard folks say that there's deep cultural significance to Pom Poko because of its allusions to history, but that movie's about nothing but fae raccoon-dogs fucking with people with their shapeshifting and giant ballsacks. That movie's fun, but it's also goddamn juvenile.
It's specifically a brand prestige thing that they're complaining about. Ghibli movies are all great, because they've got the name Ghibli on it, the greatest animated movie company ever.
I was going to mention Pom Poko, but somehow I forgot to work it in, but that's exactly the sort of thing that I mean, and it is as much about brand prestige and expectations as anything else.
That said, there is a reason that Ghibli has that reputation to begin with and there are some things that do not translate well without context. Some examples are subtler than others, though: Anyone in Japan will know *exactly* what sort of illness the mother in My Neighbour Totoro had, but an American or European might miss it if they're not paying attention.
Still cannot read it as anything other than finger-wagging.
Ftr Howl's Moving Castle is my less favorite of the two Ghibli films I've seen (take a random stab at what the other was), but I thought it was pretty good.
Granted I last saw it in....well, it was on Toonami, pre-revival, so it was a long time ago.
^^ I thought the implication was that she was one of the hibakusha, but now that you mention it I do remember reading that somewhere.
^ I like it a lot myself, but I think that you're taking the post as some kind of personal attack instead of, you know, a "this just kinda bugs me" post.
It annoys me because it espouses an attitude that I see a lot (and one that is hardly unique to tumblr) wherein if you are not liking something for the exact right reasons, you are not allowed to like it. I understand what you are saying, and that seems perfectly reasonable, but I don't think you and that person are really saying the same thing.
Also the continued pretending that there's such a thing as an objectively bad/good movie, but that's not really the poster's problem.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
I like it okay, but it's quality is really ultimately subjective.
Also, I agree with the statement that love for Ghibli borders on exotification. I believe that to be true.
I don't see this attitude in this post at all. In fact, that's the farthest thing from what they're saying. They're entreating people to look beyond the things they like about it and see other things. They're calling for people to criticize what they love.
^^ I thought the implication was that she was one of the hibakusha, but now that you mention it I do remember reading that somewhere.
^ I like it a lot myself, but I think that you're taking the post as some kind of personal attack instead of, you know, a "this just kinda bugs me" post.
It's actually outright confirmed in the novelisation.
It annoys me because it espouses an attitude that I see a lot (and one that is hardly unique to tumblr) wherein if you are not liking something for the exact right reasons, you are not allowed to like it. I understand what you are saying, and that seems perfectly reasonable, but I don't think you and that person are really saying the same thing.
I don't think that's the case. I think the person's just tired of being shouted down for not liking something that other people like and being given shallow reasons for why they are "wrong," and I completely understand that even if I think the wording is a bit janky and confused in places.
It annoys me because it espouses an attitude that I see a lot (and one that is hardly unique to tumblr) wherein if you are not liking something for the exact right reasons, you are not allowed to like it. I understand what you are saying, and that seems perfectly reasonable, but I don't think you and that person are really saying the same thing.
I don't think that's the case. I think the person's just tired of being shouted down for not liking something that other people like and being given shallow reasons for why they are "wrong," and I completely understand that even if I think the wording is a bit janky and confused in places.
I would be willing to buy that if we were not talking about Howl's Moving Castle, in 2014.
Certainly I think it's a film a lot of people like, but I don't think anyone would call it a classic. There is a difference between being "shouted down" and just being surrounded people who have a different opinion than you.
Comments
You are right that the series is apparently targeted at the adult male "otaku" demographic. Yet, when K-On!, Kiniro Mosaic, Lucky Star, and shows of that ilk are marketed and sold in North America, the DVD covers and promotional material seem to emphasize the female frendship part of the shows over the "this show was made to pander to adult male otakus" part.
At the end of the day, I think it would probably be better if people just took those kinds of shows at face value. I do not see much of a reason to care a whole lot about what the target demographic of a show was in Japan when that does not have much meaning outside of that country. I can totally get behind being annoyed with fanservice and creepy content in a show itself, but it seems unfair to me to judge a show solely based on what label it happened to fall under in Japan.
I tend to agree with you about Kanon, Air, and other anime based off of dating sim type visual novels. In my opinion, Clannad (especially the second season) is pretty decent as far as those go, but it certainly has its share of problematic characterizations, plots, and the like. I would definitely not consider it the masterpiece it is sometimes made out to be. The depiction of women in those and similar shows bugs me, in large part because of the power dynamic you mentioned and the frequent invocation of traditional gender norms.
excepting the zero chapter which is silly
What I'm saying is that my Japanese animes are the axe for the frozen sea inside of me.
That is elitist and stupid. Especially when the person is admitting that they're not any more knowledgeable about the subject than the people they're criticizing.
but like oftentimes people just say "whoa that's DEEP" as a substitute for trying to understand something better
Also literally no one actually says "whoa that's deep" verbatim. Nobody says that. No one has said that ever. It's one of those things that people think other people say all the time but nobody actually says.
If you are not Japanese (and the person in question seems to indicate they're not) what right do you have to tell people they're appreciating a piece of Japanese media "the wrong way"?
And how are you going to accuse others of being ignorant when is somehow a criticism-worthy statement for you? Animation is an artform and if you're going to mock someone for appreciating it all that shows is that you're the idiot.
howl's moving castle seems like a weird choice for accusing of orientalism, though, since it's based, if loosely, on a jones novel.
That's like, idk, criticizing someone for not explaining why they Liked a page on Facebook.
* this is true, i'm not just copying the post
Anyway
I really have a hard time reading posts like that as anything but "I'm smarter than you, nyeeeerr". Maybe it is reflective of my experience on the internet, maybe I have simply grown jaded, but that is how I see it.
Ftr Howl's Moving Castle is my less favorite of the two Ghibli films I've seen (take a random stab at what the other was), but I thought it was pretty good.
Granted I last saw it in....well, it was on Toonami, pre-revival, so it was a long time ago.
It annoys me because it espouses an attitude that I see a lot (and one that is hardly unique to tumblr) wherein if you are not liking something for the exact right reasons, you are not allowed to like it. I understand what you are saying, and that seems perfectly reasonable, but I don't think you and that person are really saying the same thing.
Also the continued pretending that there's such a thing as an objectively bad/good movie, but that's not really the poster's problem.
Certainly I think it's a film a lot of people like, but I don't think anyone would call it a classic. There is a difference between being "shouted down" and just being surrounded people who have a different opinion than you.