is it pronounced "gif" or "gif"

24

Comments

  • you need to argue your point, using the text as support

    whoever is more clearly supported by the text "wins"
  • kill living beings

    Really this bothers me on a deep level because it seems to imply that reality is subjective, that there can  be no "right" meaning to a work because multiple interpretations can be valid.

    that is basically the point. yes.
  • edited 2015-12-02 18:27:08
    Wow, this discussion got a lot more interesting than I thought it was.

    Also, alternate interpretations are just as valid as author's intentions, all else being equal.

    You can ask what part(s) of the source material each interpretation is based on.  That's useful to know what basis is being used.  And I guess you could try to argue over whose interpretation is holier based on that, but there's really not much point.

    Also, just because an alternate interpretation exists doesn't invalidate the author's intention either.  JSYK.
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    Well i mean you're allowed, and in your scenario that person is being an ass, but their reading isn't invalid.

    You could perhaps point to aspects which contradict their reading and ask what made them interpret it that way.
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.

    reality is subjective

    It is.
  • Really this bothers me on a deep level because it seems to imply that reality is subjective, that there can  be no "right" meaning to a work because multiple interpretations can be valid.


    Whereas the way I've always thought of it reality is objective, because the only meaning of the work is the one the author says it is.
    Reality is not subjective like this.

    This only works for fiction.
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    Like Myr brings up a good point. It's way more interesting for Han Solo to shoot first.

    It's not what Lucas intended, and he's been trying to "fix" it for years, but it's a happy accident that makes it better.
  • MachSpeed said:

    reality is subjective

    It is.
    Not quite.  Those are people's estimates of reality.
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    'Canon' and 'death of the author' are both technical terms that have their origins in very different schools of thought.  To claim that something is *canon* on the basis of death of the author is pretty nonsensical, almost a contradiction in terms.
  • edited 2015-12-02 18:29:07
    Also I'm surprised everyone's siding against Centie on this because I'm pretty sure I've argued the exact opposite and everyone sided against me on it.

    e;fb
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    We were different people then.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    I dunno, saying "the author says it means this, but I took it to mean that" without appending "so I guess I was wrong" feels, frankly, insulting and disrespectful toward the author.

    But I guess y'all don't think so?
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch

    MachSpeed said:

    reality is subjective

    It is.
    Not quite.  Those are people's estimates of reality.
    Arguably.  There's kind of a philosophical issue here which i'm not sure if it's relevant or not.
  • the author merely creates the text, the whole of the thing is created through experience, which the author has no special claim to

    what you are saying is equivalent to saying that not following the instruction manual that comes with a Lego set is disrespectful to the person who designed the set
  • We can do anything if we do it together.

    Bradbury didn't mean to do that, and he doesn't like that it's doing that, but look how much good it's doing!

    To be fair, there were quite a lot of things Bradbury didn't like. He was kind of a grumpy old man in his later years.

    ...I wonder why that's so common with sci-fi authors.
    I think that's because being a good sci-fi author requires having high hopes for humanity.

    It's easy to get bitter when humanity then fails to attain those hopes.
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch

    I dunno, saying "the author says it means this, but I took it to mean that" without appending "so I guess I was wrong" feels, frankly, insulting and disrespectful toward the author.


    But I guess y'all don't think so?
    i guess to me this seems kinda besides the point?

    Like, 'insulting and disrespectful' implies it's a question of manners, whereas 'validity' is a question of logic.

    You could make a case for insulting and disrespectful but that's a lot murkier and harder to pin down i think, since it depends on the values of the society in which you're making that claim.
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    "Canon" is just "this stuff happens in the fictional world." Interpretation is passing judgment on that stuff.

    "Canon" is "Arthur pulled the sword from the stone, and became king, and years later Camelot fell."

    "Interpretation" is "Bold Arthur pulled the sacred sword from the stone, wore the crown as best he could, but Camelot's fall was not in his power to stop;" or "Callow Arthur pulled the antiquated sword from the stone, wore a crown without understanding its weight, and Camelot fell because he broke some rules but would not break others."
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022

    the author merely creates the text, the whole of the thing is created through experience, which the author has no special claim to

    what you are saying is equivalent to saying that not following the instruction manual that comes with a Lego set is disrespectful to the person who designed the set

    If you don't follow the instructions to a Lego set, you're saying "I think I can build a better model on my own", which is fine.

    If you refuse to accept the author's interpretation of a work as correct, you're saying "I think I know the author's intent better than the author does." Which doesn't seem right to me.
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch

    If you refuse to accept the author's interpretation of a work as correct, you're saying "I think I know the author's intent better than the author does."


    You're not, and that's kind of the point.
  • edited 2015-12-02 18:37:17
    Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    The individual member of the audience is a co-creator of the work because they experience it, and as such, what they interpret can be very valid.

    You're absolutely not discerning the author's intent. You're uncovering your own experience.
  • I dunno, saying "the author says it means this, but I took it to mean that" without appending "so I guess I was wrong" feels, frankly, insulting and disrespectful toward the author.


    But I guess y'all don't think so?
    I say that both the author and you are right.

    Since it is fiction, multiple interpretations can coexist simultaneously.
  • Sup bitches, witches, Haters, and trolls.
    that implies that finding the author's intent is the goal of reading fiction at all
  • the author merely creates the text, the whole of the thing is created through experience, which the author has no special claim to

    what you are saying is equivalent to saying that not following the instruction manual that comes with a Lego set is disrespectful to the person who designed the set

    If you don't follow the instructions to a Lego set, you're saying "I think I can build a better model on my own", which is fine.

    If you refuse to accept the author's interpretation of a work as correct, you're saying "I think I know the author's intent better than the author does." Which doesn't seem right to me.
    But then you're assuming that the purpose of interpretation is to determine the author's intent.

    For some people it is.

    For me, personally, it is not.
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    You, the reader, do not even have *access* to the authorial intent.  Authorial intent *cannot* be the definitive say on the interpretation of a text since the intent itself is not available to be interpreted.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    Tachyon said:

    If you refuse to accept the author's interpretation of a work as correct, you're saying "I think I know the author's intent better than the author does."


    You're not, and that's kind of the point.
    How are you not?
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    Every work relies on its audience to fill in the blanks. As such, what the audience fills into said blanks matters.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    I feel like there's a difference between saying "I took this work to be a metaphor for domestic violence" and "this work is a metaphor for domestic violence."

    You're entitled to your interpretation of the work, but that doesn't make it objectively true.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    To bring it back around, it's the difference between "I say it with a hard g" and "It's pronounced with a hard g."

    You can say it however you want, but that doesn't make your pronunciation correct.
  • Sup bitches, witches, Haters, and trolls.
    i think it's the entire idea of "objectively true" that's being challenged here, centie
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    OK, caveat: sometimes your aim *is* to discern authorial intent, and clearly communication is to some extent possible, and we seem to get along ok with technical manuals and such.

    But that's still subject to an imperfect process of encoding and decoding, at no point in the process do you have direct access to authorial intent.
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    Calica said:

    i think it's the entire idea of "objectively true" that's being challenged here, centie


  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    There are people who invented words like "magic" and so on, words that have changed in pronunciation and meaning and spelling over time. Are we still supposed to consider their intentions as "correct?"

    Because they're dead.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    Alright, here's how I always viewed it:

    A work has an objectively correct interpretation. The objectively correct interpretation is the one the author says it is. It doesn't matter if there's aspects the author doesn't fully understand or isn't aware of, or even if the author is outright lying about his intent. The act of saying "this work is about X" makes that statement objectively true.

    But you guys seem to think of it differently...could you explain?
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch

    To bring it back around, it's the difference between "I say it with a hard g" and "It's pronounced with a hard g."


    You can say it however you want, but that doesn't make your pronunciation correct.
    This is a major concern in lexicography.

    The usual descriptivist stance, taken by, among others, the Oxford English Dictionary, is that if people pronounce it with a hard 'g' then clearly, empirically, it's correct to say that it's pronounced with a hard 'g'.

    You can prove it.  Point to someone saying it with a hard 'g', you have proof of the word being pronounced with a hard 'g'.
  • If you're a scholar of a creative medium, then part of your purpose is to assess the author's intent in a given work.  In that case, it is important to understand the author's intent and to see it as a sort of standard of comparison for all other interpretations.

    If you're a casual audience member, only enjoying it for yourself, there is no need to stick to "canon".  You can choose whatever interpretation you wish to have.  You can declare something non-canon if you want to.  You can declare other material canon if you want to.  Or technically, fanon, since you're a fan.  But whatever.  My point is, you get to say whatever goes, in your imagination.

    You might not agree with any other specific person on this.  It's possible that there's a fan consensus opinion after a while.  You have no obligation to agree with this consensus, because this is fiction, not reality.

    (Heck, this is how we get all these religions with their arguing over which texts are canon and non-canon.  But then again in the realm of religion people actually believe that to be reality and not fiction, so that's a bit more complicated to say the least.)
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    It's simple.

    There is nothing that is objectively true in this world or the next. There's the thing, and there's what we understand about it, what we think about it, what we use to describe it.

    All of which are imperfect encodes, decodes to the thing.
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch

    If you're a scholar of a creative medium, then part of your purpose is to assess the author's intent in a given work.

    Not really.  It *might* be part of your purpose, but that's by no means a given.  That's not usually considered a particularly interesting question, and for reasons outlined above, it's not necessarily even possible.
  • MachSpeed said:

    It's simple.


    There is nothing that is objectively true in this world or the next. There's the thing, and there's what we understand about it, what we think about it, what we use to describe it.

    All of which are imperfect encodes, decodes to the thing.
    There's an objective truth, but there is not necessarily an objective terminology for it.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    Tachyon said:

    To bring it back around, it's the difference between "I say it with a hard g" and "It's pronounced with a hard g."


    You can say it however you want, but that doesn't make your pronunciation correct.
    This is a major concern in lexicography.

    The usual descriptivist stance, taken by, among others, the Oxford English Dictionary, is that if people pronounce it with a hard 'g' then clearly, empirically, it's correct to say that it's pronounced with a hard 'g'.

    You can prove it.  Point to someone saying it with a hard 'g', you have proof of the word being pronounced with a hard 'g'.
    See, I can accept that with most words that evolve naturally, but..."GIF" isn't one of those. It's a name given to a format developed 25 years ago.

    To me using the product but not saying it the way the developer intended is like buying an iPad and pronouncing "iPad" with a long "a". Why would you go out of your way to pronounce it in a way that's not in line with the way the name was originally given?
  • To me using the product but not saying it the way the developer intended is like buying an iPad and pronouncing "iPad" with a long "a". Why would you go out of your way to pronounce it in a way that's not in line with the way the name was originally given?

    well someone certainly paid a price for it
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    I'm not going out of my way.

    This is my way.
  • For once, or maybe twice, I was in my prime.

    If you refuse to accept the author's interpretation of a work as correct, you're saying "I think I know the author's intent better than the author does." Which doesn't seem right to me.


    Nah. What you're actually saying is "Author, you meant to write one thing, but you wound up writing something else instead." Or even more bluntly, "I think I know the text better than the author does."
  • as an author you can say "this is what I intended to say with my text"

    nobody can argue that the author didn't intend what they intended

    but an author can easily imply things they didn't intend to imply that radically change what they were saying

    the primary quality of effective writing is insuring that you have effectively communicated what you intended to communicate

    imagine the text as an argument. you have an claim (idea) you want to communicate, and in the text you provide evidence for your claim. the reader then takes the evidence you have provided and reaches a conclusion, the "meaning" of the text. but, it is very possible for you to have provided evidence that leads to something you haven't intended.

    an obvious example: every piece of media you've ever seen that was definitely and unintentionally racist
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    MachSpeed said:

    I'm not going out of my way.


    This is my way.

    Yeah, this. i've been saying it with a hard 'g' since the beginning, that's the word as i learned it.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    MachSpeed said:

    I'm not going out of my way.


    This is my way.
    What does that even mean?

    It's like when I correct people for using "EST" instead of "EDT" after times from March-November. Instead of just saying "oh yeah, you're right, I'll stop doing that" they go all "WELL EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT I MEAN ANYWAYS"

    If you're saying it with a hard g and you find out the developers pronounced it with a soft g, switch to a soft g. Otherwise you're being a dick for no reason.
  • MetaFour said:


    If you refuse to accept the author's interpretation of a work as correct, you're saying "I think I know the author's intent better than the author does." Which doesn't seem right to me.


    Nah. What you're actually saying is "Author, you meant to write one thing, but you wound up writing something else instead." Or even more bluntly, "I think I know the text better than the author does."
    thank you meta four for actually saying what I was trying to say but a lot better
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch

    Alright, here's how I always viewed it:


    A work has an objectively correct interpretation. The objectively correct interpretation is the one the author says it is. It doesn't matter if there's aspects the author doesn't fully understand or isn't aware of, or even if the author is outright lying about his intent. The act of saying "this work is about X" makes that statement objectively true.

    But you guys seem to think of it differently...could you explain?
    Well, how does it?  'Objective reality' means it takes place *outside* of our subjective interpretations.

    Clearly, the author's intent does not exist outside the author's subjectivity.  It's not a thing you can point to out there in the world.  This is true whether you mean their intent in writing the original text or their intent in stating 'this text is about x'.

    But neither of these has any meaning independent of language, and language has meaning only as it is interpreted by readers.  But readers' interpretations are also subjective, existing in the minds of readers.  So at what point does 'objectively correct' come into play here?
  • joinj out of one's way
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.

    If you're saying it with a hard g and you find out the developers pronounced it with a soft g, switch to a soft g. Otherwise you're being a dick for no reason.

    No.
  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    Tachyon said:

    Alright, here's how I always viewed it:


    A work has an objectively correct interpretation. The objectively correct interpretation is the one the author says it is. It doesn't matter if there's aspects the author doesn't fully understand or isn't aware of, or even if the author is outright lying about his intent. The act of saying "this work is about X" makes that statement objectively true.

    But you guys seem to think of it differently...could you explain?
    Well, how does it?  'Objective reality' means it takes place *outside* of our subjective interpretations.

    Clearly, the author's intent does not exist outside the author's subjectivity.  It's not a thing you can point to out there in the world.  This is true whether you mean their intent in writing the original text or their intent in stating 'this text is about x'.

    But neither of these has any meaning independent of language, and language has meaning only as it is interpreted by readers.  But readers' interpretations are also subjective, existing in the minds of readers.  So at what point does 'objectively correct' come into play here?
    I don't know if I'm quite ready to accept that a work doesn't have one objectively correct meaning.

    Because, well, what are the implications of that? Can anything be objectively correct then?
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