As I understand it, the reason Link is named "Link" is because he's literally supposed to be a link from the player to the game. That's it. He has no personality beyond "you're him. This is you." He's pure player action.
This being the case, having him as a Macguffin guy or whatever seems, uh, difficult. Personally I'd like to see more gender-reversed games (i.e. female protagonist saves Macguffin dude or whatever) but it seems unlikely to happen in this series.
This sounds like the kind of game I'm glad I didn't hear of before now.
EDIT: Watched the Steam trailer, or at least as much as I could tolerate. Might be the most pointlessly, effusively, tediously edgelordy thing I've seen in months and I think I lost a few hundred brain cells before stopping the preview. I will now return to acting like I never heard of it because my life was probably better then.
Also they appear to have gotten rid of the 180-degree turn, which is plain fucking stupid
It's in the skill tree thing they put in, I think. A lot of the basic things that were just in there before have to be unlocked in the new one. I don't know where it is but I wrote a post a while back about it :/ I can try to find it later, maybe.
but don't you understand that the POINT of games is to be SUPER EDGELORDY because real life is too happy and boring
and then people began showing off their ridiculously colorful knives because as we all know military professionals frequently do this to brandish their sense of style and skill
I just...honestly don't get where you all are coming from?
LISA isn't a perfect game, and it's definitely not a game that I'd recommend for everybody, but 'edgelordy' is the last word I'd use to describe it. Even at its darkest and most unpleasant, it's not dark and unpleasant for the sake of being dark and unpleasant, and it's definitely not doing so to appeal to the teenage to young adult male crowd. It's just Dingaling making the sort of games that he wants to play. Hell, if anything, it's more absurdist than anything, with weird mutants and bizarre characters and such.
* You can get into a legal battle with a bunch of nonsensical fishpeople
* One of the best attacks is spitting up gasoline on your opponents so you can set them on fire
* A team of sentai heroes roam the land, getting into nonsensical adventures
* There are four different recruitable characters that wear silly animal masks
It's not a game about being edgey. It's a game about a bunch of wacky weirdos trying to survive in a barren desert, a game about a guy trying his best to deal with his shitty childhood without screwing it up for the past. Dammit, it's worth something to me, and I'd appreciate it if you guys didn't toss it under the bridge because I posted the wrong thing.
If it means anything to you, I'm still set on playing it and have found all of your comments on LISA begrudgingly helpful. Begrudgingly because I'd really rather find out for myself (blah blah, me and spoilers), and the scant information I've seen for most of my time has been enough, but like I said, the plain-faced thoughts are nice.
I've heard that LISA is kind of the anti-Undertale in a lot of ways, but a lot of the people saying that also seem to really enjoy each game for completely different reasons, and I think that's telling. It sounds very, very dark, but not for its own sake, and honestly? I'm tired of people conflating morbid or grim subject matter in itself with the immature desire to seem "adult" through the hollow use of morbid or grim subject matter. It's fine not to like really dark stuff, but that doesn't make people who make or enjoy it "edgelords." That accusation is so overused, my stars.
Sorry I sounded so bitter but, I dunno, I feel like people here (and certainly elsewhere) can be kind of judgemental about stuff like this, and it makes me uncomfortable, particularly as a writer who sees fiction as route for personal catharsis...
I'm tired of people conflating morbid or grim subject matter in itself with the immature desire to seem "adult" through the hollow use of morbid or grim subject matter.
I often enjoy the former too. But goddamn that store page and trailer sure tried very, very hard to look like the latter.
I have never played LISA and thus have no opinion on it.
It seems very depressing which is not something I typically look for in JRPGs not named dotFlow, so I've never really had a reason to pick it up, but I can't bring myself to have a strong opinion on something I've never even tried to give a shot.
@fallout peeps: why do a lot of people seem to regard new vegas as vastly superior to fallout 3? i didn't get too far into either, but i will say fo3 more immediately grabbed me. non-bitter answers preferred. :p
I'm tired of people conflating morbid or grim subject matter in itself with the immature desire to seem "adult" through the hollow use of morbid or grim subject matter.
I often enjoy the former too. But goddamn that store page and trailer sure tried very, very hard to look like the latter.
@fallout peeps: why do a lot of people seem to regard new vegas as vastly superior to fallout 3? i didn't get too far into either, but i will say fo3 more immediately grabbed me. non-bitter answers preferred. :p
My brother who prefers New Vegas seems to dislike the main plot of 3, especially the ending. I have played about twenty minutes of 3 and none of NV so I can't really speak to it myself.
My other friend who likes NV a lot cited the usual "better writing" when I asked her.
a co-worker mentioned the other day that he had fond memories of Fallout 3, i asked him 'what about New Vegas?' and he was just like 'Naaaaah mate, couldn't get into that one.'
i've been reading a bit about this, since i've been considering getting into the series; from what i can tell 'better writing' appears to relate to perceived holes in the story of 3, and perhaps more convincing ideological characterization on the villains in NV. Also perhaps something to do with how they handled moral dilemmas?
OTOH i've also seen a lot of complaints about NV being glitchy.
I've heard that LISA is kind of the anti-Undertale in a lot of ways, but a lot of the people saying that also seem to really enjoy each game for completely different reasons, and I think that's telling. It sounds very, very dark, but not for its own sake, and honestly? I'm tired of people conflating morbid or grim subject matter in itself with the immature desire to seem "adult" through the hollow use of morbid or grim subject matter. It's fine not to like really dark stuff, but that doesn't make people who make or enjoy it "edgelords." That accusation is so overused, my stars.
Last time it came up, in Epi's thread, I think I was the one who made that comparison. You could argue that it just approaches the same sort of topic in different ways.
Undertale is, inherently, about the inherent worth of kindness in the face of difficulty. Everybody is redeemable, at least in part. Your foes are all friendly beings, and are only fighting you for the sake of their species. It's a game where the good guys win because they are good.
LISA, on the other hand, is in large part about how the opposite approach -- violence, cruelty and abuse -- isn't just ineffective, but can ruin the state of affairs so badly that reverting to the kindness and goodness approach doesn't even work anymore.
I'm tired of people conflating morbid or grim subject matter in itself with the immature desire to seem "adult" through the hollow use of morbid or grim subject matter.
I often enjoy the former too. But goddamn that store page and trailer sure tried very, very hard to look like the latter.
Yeah, I mean, I can see how you can get the 'grimdark' impression from the store page, but afaik, the trailer's reveling too much in its ridiculousness to earn that moniker.
LISA, on the other hand, is in large part about how the opposite approach -- violence, cruelty and abuse -- isn't just ineffective, but can ruin the state of affairs so badly that reverting to the kindness and goodness approach doesn't even work anymore.
Arguably, this theme is also present in Undertale, although you can redeem yourself late-game and get away with nothing worse than a little guilt-tripping.
Fair. I wasn't really thinking about Genocide because a good portion of players aren't going to go that route because it's kind of painful and, well, not really all that fun except for the two bosses.
i've been reading a bit about this, since i've been considering getting into the series; from what i can tell 'better writing' appears to relate to perceived holes in the story of 3, and perhaps more convincing ideological characterization on the villains in NV. Also perhaps something to do with how they handled moral dilemmas?
This is basically what my brother said. 3 is more of a "straightforward good-and-evil story" (which he finds inappropriate for the universe and unlike some of the side quests in the same game), NV is more "interesting". (Those were his words, if I recall correctly.)
also I guess since I'm in the general video game thread, I could post about video games I've actually played
I don't think I ever mentioned on here that I've been playing it but I just got to the second level in gungeon for the first time and that felt hella good for ten seconds until I died
I mean, people can say it's not good and evil, but there's basically no reason to join up with Caesar's Legion unless you've been redpilled by Moldbug.
Fallout 3's intro is a way better intro to the world of Fallout, and I think goons kind of forget that because they're all the kind of people who religiously played the buggy-but-interesting games back in the 90s and can't imagine having to be introduced to Fallout.
that reminds me of a thing i was thinking about the other day (actually wrt Mass Effect, but if anything it's more applicable to Bethesda's games)
i feel like it's relatively easy to create a scenario in which players incline towards a given faction depending on their political values
it would be more impressive to create a scenario in which players with left-leaning values might be tempted towards a right-wing faction, and players with right-leaning values might be tempted towards a left-wing faction
it further occurred to me that this might actually be an irresponsible thing to create, from an ethical standpoint, in that the resulting game could function as a piece of apologetics for extreme political viewpoints
I got the impression that NV was an "evil vs. somewhat less evil" type of plot?
Perhaps it's a question of whether the villains are psychologically plausible and conceptually interesting?
Like, from what i can tell, the antagonists of the early games were never intended to have arguments players might find appealing or interesting, but they were sufficiently robust that players were motivated to come up with a serious rebuttal, and sufficiently convincing that you could imagine someone actually coming to those conclusions themselves.
i haven't played Fallout 3 but if the writing is anything like in the Bethesda games i have played, Oblivion and Skyrim, i can see people finding the characterization a bit weak. There's no attempt in either game to challenge the player's values from an intellectual standpoint.
@fallout peeps: why do a lot of people seem to regard new vegas as vastly superior to fallout 3? i didn't get too far into either, but i will say fo3 more immediately grabbed me. non-bitter answers preferred. :p
Everything I've heard about Fallout 3 suggests I would really like it (the opening cutscene in particular seems like a really good way to handle character creation) but by that same token I'd already been spoiled on so much of the plot it didn't feel like it was worth it.
That said, apparently Chris Avellone didn't work on Fallout 3? So On the other hand, the NV expansions (specifically Lonesome Road) are the most Chris Avellone things ever. Which is sort of a take it or leave it thing--I can see how Ulysses' elliptical speech patterns could get tiring--but I loved it.
I got the impression that NV was an "evil vs. somewhat less evil" type of plot?
Eh...I think it really wanted to be, but in practice it ended up being what Naney said. Caesar's Legion was just so over the top that even on my intended "evil" playthrough I just stabbed Caesar in the back and ran instead of joining him.
Fallout 3 definitely has a hackneyed good-vs-evil plot. I don't think anybody can really argue against that. It's not terrible for a standard game, but for a game that's ostensibly about roleplaying, it does require you to be...something of a good person in order for your actions to make sense (as opposed to F:NV, which, in my opinion, gives you a bit more leeway concerning your motivations). Never mind those bits near the end where the plot starts running on the rules of drama over the rules of the universe.
There are also a few sidequests that raise...issues, to say the least, when it comes to the karma system. The one where you give a girl an aphrodisiac so she can drug a priest-in-training into marrying her. The Tenpenny Tower quest. A few others.
That said, I agree with Myr in that the tutorial sequence for Fallout 3 is something unique to the game, and I'd like more games to to have that sort of intradiegetic manner of character creation. And Fallout 3 takes a good amount of risks when it comes to wacky stuff. The quest about the cosplayers was fun. The Republic of Dave is fun. Little Lamplight makes no sense whatsoever, but it's a fun little idea.
so basically what i'm getting here is that i should try out fo3 for myself and form my own opinions. 👍
i def preferred fallout 3's "alright you're in a vault and you're growing up as the overseer's(? i don't remember if he was the overseer i just remember he was important. he may actually have been a doctor) kid and welp looks like everything went to shit and you have to leave everything you've ever known and find your father" opening vs new vegas's "alright you just got shot in the head and you've been dropped in some boring town you must now defend." opening, buuut that's just me.
shit i know about caesar's legion:
it's a group entirely based on slavery, murder, crucifixion, and rape
and thusly, are violently misogynistic
fangirls really, really want to fuck the wolf dude from this group, for some reason.
Comments
This being the case, having him as a Macguffin guy or whatever seems, uh, difficult. Personally I'd like to see more gender-reversed games (i.e. female protagonist saves Macguffin dude or whatever) but it seems unlikely to happen in this series.
/me emails a URL
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
spitting up gasoline on your opponents and setting them on fire? I can get behind that, at least
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Sorry I sounded so bitter but, I dunno, I feel like people here (and certainly elsewhere) can be kind of judgemental about stuff like this, and it makes me uncomfortable, particularly as a writer who sees fiction as route for personal catharsis...
That's about it. Fallout 3 has a lot more memorable setpieces and locations, but goons and grognarding
My other friend who likes NV a lot cited the usual "better writing" when I asked her.
i've been reading a bit about this, since i've been considering getting into the series; from what i can tell 'better writing' appears to relate to perceived holes in the story of 3, and perhaps more convincing ideological characterization on the villains in NV. Also perhaps something to do with how they handled moral dilemmas?
OTOH i've also seen a lot of complaints about NV being glitchy.
Although NV wasn't actually Bethesda, they only published it. It was licensed to Obsidian.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Arguably, this theme is also present in Undertale, although you can redeem yourself late-game and get away with nothing worse than a little guilt-tripping.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
I don't think I ever mentioned on here that I've been playing it but I just got to the second level in gungeon for the first time and that felt hella good for ten seconds until I died
i feel like it's relatively easy to create a scenario in which players incline towards a given faction depending on their political values
it would be more impressive to create a scenario in which players with left-leaning values might be tempted towards a right-wing faction, and players with right-leaning values might be tempted towards a left-wing faction
it further occurred to me that this might actually be an irresponsible thing to create, from an ethical standpoint, in that the resulting game could function as a piece of apologetics for extreme political viewpoints
Perhaps it's a question of whether the villains are psychologically plausible and conceptually interesting?
Like, from what i can tell, the antagonists of the early games were never intended to have arguments players might find appealing or interesting, but they were sufficiently robust that players were motivated to come up with a serious rebuttal, and sufficiently convincing that you could imagine someone actually coming to those conclusions themselves.
i haven't played Fallout 3 but if the writing is anything like in the Bethesda games i have played, Oblivion and Skyrim, i can see people finding the characterization a bit weak. There's no attempt in either game to challenge the player's values from an intellectual standpoint.
let's not even get to the "do the opposite" part yet
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead