Toriel is at the ruins as normal when you start over, but at the time when you could meet Asriel at the ruins, she was waiting in New Home near where the barrier used to be.
It bothers Asgore a hell of a lot. Remember, he can't even look at you when he's fighting, and refuses to let you try and grant him mercy till the very end.
There is also a line of dialogue from Undyne about she couldn't land a single attack on Asgore while she was a kid, implying in that sense that Asgore could dodge your attacks much like a certain skeleton but chooses not to because of guilt, considering in some endings, when you get him weak enough and choose mercy, he kills himself to give you the power to cross the barrier and find a better ending, this isn't too far off.
I didn't go back to see Asriel on my first playthrough, that's partly why I wanted to do a second.
This is one of the main reasons I was considering one, too.
Based on reading the wiki it sounds like Asriel doesn't reappear if you reload your save and do the ending again, but he does if you reset and play the whole game over.
he could represent the player's previous experience with RPGs, it could be that they're a disturbed kid pushed all the way by your actions, looking at it more broadly they also function in a sort of symbolic unit with asriel and frisk, there's also an obvious comparison to be drawn to like every single video game creepypasta ever written
Chara is the one character who the game never allows an opportunity to be good or even to be understood really and it feels rather incongruous with the themes at play
The game never allows Chara an opportunity to be good because you're their opportunity
Chara's only acknowledgement in the pacifist run is that they weren't a very good person. The idea at they are representative of the player's choices only shows up in any significant capacity in the genocide route
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
And I mean, the whole time Flowey is calling you "Chara", you don't think he's projecting a little, and from that, you can discern things? And the whole thing with the video tapes?
Are we or aren't we looking at the game as a whole?
We are. Taken as a whole, Chara is:
*all but nonexistent in the neutral run *mentioned as being the creepy, sadistic adopted sibling of Asriel (and in Asriel's own words a bad person) in the pacifist run *the most actively evil force within the diegesis in the genocide run (whether or not they were corrupted by the player)
And I mean, the whole time Flowey is calling you "Chara", you don't think he's projecting a little, and from that, you can discern things? And the whole thing with the video tapes?
Yes, I do. And that's why I don't think the game properly allows a redemption. Insofar as any quality of Chara is described it is that they were weird and malicious. The possibility exists that they weren't the reality altering evil force until the player came along, but the idea that they can be redeemed through player action is mostly conjecture and isn't acknowledged by the game.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
Maybe Chara didn't need to be redeemed at all. Asriel, though well-meaning, clearly cannot see into Chara's heart, and his speculations are colored by his perceptions.
Even on a pacifist run, there are hints that the narrator may be Chara. Their memories are referenced when joking with Woshua, and when you take unFrisklike (mean) dialogue options while fighting Snowdrake's mother they are followed with ". . . What? You didn't say that?"
Most references to Asriel's adopted sibling *didn't* make them sound creepy or sadistic. They can make a scary face, they hated humanity and wanted to fight back when the humans attacked, they 'laughed it off' when Asgore got sick and Asriel conceded that they were 'not the greatest person'. That's about it on the negative front, outside the genocide route.
They were clearly someone Asriel cared about *very much*, that detail is vital to Asriel's story.
Okay I'm done talking about this game I clearly have no idea how to engage anyone in a discussion or something
I would be willing to talk about this with you, because I do disagree and think you are missing some key connections here (at least from my perspective) but you seemed to just kinda ignore me when I tried talking about it with you earlier? so I stopped trying. idk
People seem to interpret me not literally responding to everything everybody says as me ignoring them and not me having difficulty defending a position against multiple people at once who all have very different pespective on the issue at hand and who are all interpreting what I say very differently
i felt bad, and still do, that that became an "entire thread vs Kex" moment, but i felt very strongly about this particular game.
Undertale is literally one of my favorite games man I feel strongly about it too
And it just seems like people only want to undermine my criticisms by implying I just didn't "get" the game and all I need is an explanation of basic plot elements and *then* I'll get it
i felt bad, and still do, that that became an "entire thread vs Kex" moment, but i felt very strongly about this particular game.
Undertale is literally one of my favorite games man I feel strongly about it too
And it just seems like people only want to undermine my criticisms by implying I just didn't "get" the game and all I need is an explanation of basic plot elements and *then* I'll get it
Honestly thinking back to the previous discussion, i think a big part of it was that to you, Kex, 'Kill or be killed' was a more interesting motivation than 'i just miss having someone i cared about', and the latter undermined the former.
Whereas to me, the two motivations seemed directly related to one another, and the latter seemed the more interesting as it humanized (awkward term in an UT context, i know) the character
i could speculate that this relates to different elements of the game resonating with each of us more strongly, but that feels a bit presumptuous
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Based on reading the wiki it sounds like Asriel doesn't reappear if you reload your save and do the ending again, but he does if you reset and play the whole game over.
*all but nonexistent in the neutral run
*mentioned as being the creepy, sadistic adopted sibling of Asriel (and in Asriel's own words a bad person) in the pacifist run
*the most actively evil force within the diegesis in the genocide run (whether or not they were corrupted by the player)
Okay I'm done talking about this game I clearly have no idea how to engage anyone in a discussion or something
Most references to Asriel's adopted sibling *didn't* make them sound creepy or sadistic. They can make a scary face, they hated humanity and wanted to fight back when the humans attacked, they 'laughed it off' when Asgore got sick and Asriel conceded that they were 'not the greatest person'. That's about it on the negative front, outside the genocide route.
They were clearly someone Asriel cared about *very much*, that detail is vital to Asriel's story.
Things that are very necessary for sussing out meaning and basic character motivation are left to player speculation
There is an extent to which the ambiguity works but it stretches itself too thin
though I will also add that the placement of that line is kinda subjective
And it just seems like people only want to undermine my criticisms by implying I just didn't "get" the game and all I need is an explanation of basic plot elements and *then* I'll get it
It gets tiring
Whereas to me, the two motivations seemed directly related to one another, and the latter seemed the more interesting as it humanized (awkward term in an UT context, i know) the character
i could speculate that this relates to different elements of the game resonating with each of us more strongly, but that feels a bit presumptuous