i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Anyhow...
I'm not quite sure how I feel about this, but I can at least respect the decision. My experiences with Chagen are pretty limited, but t I can understand that this would be the best policy in this situation.
I dislike that some people treat this place as "forum #3 on the list of places I can go if I get banned" and this particular person has a reputation stirring up trouble. It's also probably that it's not just this person's reputation that's being considered, but firsthand experiences. I doubt Anonus came to this decision lightly.
That being said, I think the list of people that this would happen with is rather short, people need not react as if this is some sort of new totalitarian policy the mods are instituting.
Nice try, but jailing and pre-emptive banning have absolutely nothing to do with each other.
The analogy you should be using is:
I am going to revoke your account with us at the Video Rental Shop because I have references from other Video Rental Stores that you never return videos you rent from us, and that is an issue I do not wish to encounter with you.
This is more accurate than using a justice and crime related analogy.
@Forzare No, I'm taking your position to it's logical extreme.
....Which is really a crappy way of making my point. I debate more effectively when I'm not really angry. Since I've calmed down some....
My problem is that, to a large degree, Chagen's problems (*Crazy family, preoccupation with own weird fetishes, drama queen....*) are all very much qualities apparent in myself, albiet to a lesser degree. Looking at the guy almost strikes me as a "What Might Have Been" of my own life if I, instead of coping by growing up too fast, coped by not growing up at all. I empathise with him and (*irrationally*) want to help, regardless of the Sysiphian nature of the task.
I'm going to revoke your account with us at the Rental Shop despite being an okay customer and being within the rules because I have references from other Shops that you don't return videos and that is an issue I don't want to encounter with you.
I'd say it's more like getting fired from Wal-Mart because it turns out you got arrested more than once for picking fights with customers while working at Target and K-Mart.
If I were the manager of Wal-Mart, I wouldn't want an employee who's been shown to have anger problems and has attacked customers on multiple occasions. But that's beside the point.
@Naney: I don't see that as as big an issue, though. I've done stupid things on forums before. Everyone has. And the fact that you can recognize that you have those problems, however minor, makes it incredibly unlikely that you'll ever sink to Chagen's depths.
Yeah Naney, I was really close to Chagen on TVT and helped him with many of his issues with other posters as well, and even invited him to IJBM2 after the fallout happened on that site because I didn't want him to wander off to some other site and be subjected to unwarranted hatred and spite. In the end, all the help I offered him...didn't mean shit. The progress I thought he was having with dealing with his issues and distorted views based on misunderstandings, vanished almost instantly and he mutated back to his old self, and the things I discussed and aided him in understanding were now his weapons to use in heated corrupted arguments, adapting and mixing them to suit his problems perfectly and cause explosions of drama left and right.
As somebody who witnessed almost the entire Chagen timeline for myself, from both sides as someone who wanted to help him and enjoyed his company and somebody who wanted him gone and couldn't stand him, I can safely say that it would be best for him not to stay and the pre-emptive ban was very justified. The ethics behind it do not matter me because of the person in question.
I'm not sure what your experiences with Chagen were like Whale, and you may dislike the pre-emptive ban more than I can see on screen now, but I have plenty of reasons why I agree with it.
Oh, ignore my argument where I bared my soul and whatnot!!! See if I care!!!! (*Humph*)
I thought you made a good point, but realistically A) Chagen needs waaaaay more help than we can give him and B) Anonymous, being the admin, has to think about the site first.
If I were the manager of Wal-Mart, I wouldn't want an employee who's been shown to have anger problems and has attacked customers on multiple occasions. But that's beside the point.
Must be a cultural thing then because my country, you cant fire anyone becaise of what they did at other companies.
@Tno: Don't really care what Chagen did on other sites, only care what he did here
@Tno: Don't really care what Chagen did on other sites, only care what he did here
Then you have absolutely no reason to continue this discussion with me. Go send a PM to Anonus to discuss Chagen's ban and why you don't agree with it, you'll gain more ground there.
Speaking as an IJBM mod, our refusal to pre-emptively ban Chagen over there was the worst of the many, many mistakes we made early on during our time as mods. I think banning him here was an excellent idea.
I don't think we are really allowed to give you the link here because that is a whole bundle of drama importation on it's own. There is an ED article (unreliable for true information but contains the screenshots), and you can ask a couple people on BTL and TVT for the link to the majority of quotes, discussions, PMs and things he's said over the years. I'm not sure if we are allowed to do that here, so sorry in advance.
The only thing that bugs me about this is I don't exactly know why you are defending Chagen, being able to know why would help me understand your side of this whole "thing".
The only thing that bugs me about this is I don't exactly know why you are defending Chagen, being able to know why would help me understand your side of this whole "thing".
I'm just not very happy with people being banned for what they have done on other sites while doing nothing wrong here. To me, its a violation of the whole innocent till proven guility thing.
I've learned to tolerate drama...except on the boat
Alright, I'm here now:
Pre-emptively banning Hlrest may have been a bit of an overreaction (though to be honest I had been watching him from day one expecting him to slip up and get in trouble). I had considered pre-emptively banning people who had histories of causing trouble on other TVT-affiliated sites, and he was the first. Now I'm not sure how great an idea that is, given that in all irony, something intended to nip strife in the bud actually caused it.
Chagen made a thread on BTL expressing regret for his past actions and he wanted us to post it here, It sounds suspiciously like a ploy to get unbanned here, but why not. If he's not remorseful at all he'll get banned quickly.
A) Chagen needs waaaaay more help than we can give him and B) Anonymous, being the admin, has to think about the site first.
This. He's shown time and time again that he has no business being on any forum. And quite frankly I don't care what he has to say. He always does this, he fucks up then begs and pleads and whines until everyone just forgives him out of pity (or a desire to get him to shut up). He's even threatened suicide when he got banned from TVT. If he didn't mean it, he's a manipulative bastard. If he did, he needs serious help. Either way, he probably shouldn't be spending that much time online, let alone on forums that make him so angry. And that's all ignoring the possibility of him being a troll. I know he didn't do anything here, but it was only a matter of time, and it seems like most of the members here would rather not put up with it (again).
Eh, I'd say let him in. I mean, he's Chagen. If he hasn't changed he'll just make some thread about fucking little girls or his diaper fetish or something and he'll get banned quickly.
Sometimes I really do hope he's a troll sometimes. Having him reject my advice and help, and begin indirectly attacking my sensibilities in threads with extremely dark and unsavory comments after we just got done discussing something like that, I would feel better knowing he's doing this for his amusement. It would help me feel better about wasting so much time trying to help him.
I don't see much a point in unbanning someone with full intention of banning him again, other than "to make him raeg", and that's hardly the kind of site this is (thankfully).
It wouldn't be letting him on to make him "raeg" when we ban him. It's letting him on and giving him a chance. Chagen lacks subtlety; if he hasn't changed, he'll make it abundantly clear.
He's done this before. He never does change. I'll admit, it's possible he really has changed, but the odds for that seem pretty low. How many times has he done this? He gets banned / criticized / warned / whatever, cleans up his act for a while and seems like a genuine poster, then goes right back to his old ways. It's not worth unbanning him just to let him do this all over again.
Chagen already said he doesn't care about this place anyway, so it's not like him being banned from here even matters to him beyond the big post he wanted to make and figuring out why he was, that he made on BTL instead.
I remember when he gave his first speech after the 2nd ban he got on IJBM2 when he said he desired nothing more than to change and atone for the atrocities he did with the whole ....thing that he did on another site. I believed him then, thinking "this might be it, he finally changed", only to have shit thrown in my face....again, a week later when he resumed to do the whining, persecution and argument triggers again.
I've learned to tolerate drama...except on the boat
Well, I learned that the "Astor" account he used to create this thread has been banned.
I'm sorry for those on the "give him another chance" side, but I think this was a good course of action. I will debate the reasoning behind pre-emptive bans with the other mods, and we will keep you posted on the decision.
It would be a different matter if Heapers' Hangout existed in a vacuum, distinct from both TVTropes itself and the other TVT spinoffs, but it doesn't, at least not to the extent that I think we can safely ignore that kind of thing.
This.
As far as I'm concerned, I don't think this even constitutes a pre-emptive ban. At least some of his prior bans have been for overt bigotry, for example, which isn't something that just goes away of its own accord, especially not in the space of however few days it was between his leaving IJBM and coming here, so that was already a known reason to ban him.
I do see Anonus' point that if he made the decision out of a desire to avert drama it clearly hasn't been 100% a success, but I support the mods' decision in this instance.
And, to echo INUH, speaking as a TVT mod, our refusal to ban Chagen over there after his initial offences was, not the worst, but certainly among the worst of the many, many mistakes we made during our time as mods.
Comments
That's not what we're saying and you know it.
No no its not a good reason at all,
to offer a bad analogy:
Should I have you jailed because you could commit a crime because you've commited a crime before?
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
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The analogy you should be using is:
I am going to revoke your account with us at the Video Rental Shop because I have references from other Video Rental Stores that you never return videos you rent from us, and that is an issue I do not wish to encounter with you.
This is more accurate than using a justice and crime related analogy.
....Which is really a crappy way of making my point. I debate more effectively when I'm not really angry. Since I've calmed down some....
My problem is that, to a large degree, Chagen's problems (*Crazy family, preoccupation with own weird fetishes, drama queen....*) are all very much qualities apparent in myself, albiet to a lesser degree. Looking at the guy almost strikes me as a "What Might Have Been" of my own life if I, instead of coping by growing up too fast, coped by not growing up at all. I empathise with him and (*irrationally*) want to help, regardless of the Sysiphian nature of the task.
I said it was a bad analogy okay?
But an better analogy would be:
I'm going to revoke your account with us at the Rental Shop despite being an okay customer and being within the rules because I have references from other Shops that you don't return videos and that is an issue I don't want to encounter with you.
^
That still says what Anon did was wrong
If I were the manager of Wal-Mart, I wouldn't want an employee who's been shown to have anger problems and has attacked customers on multiple occasions. But that's beside the point.
@Naney: I don't see that as as big an issue, though. I've done stupid things on forums before. Everyone has. And the fact that you can recognize that you have those problems, however minor, makes it incredibly unlikely that you'll ever sink to Chagen's depths.
☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
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As somebody who witnessed almost the entire Chagen timeline for myself, from both sides as someone who wanted to help him and enjoyed his company and somebody who wanted him gone and couldn't stand him, I can safely say that it would be best for him not to stay and the pre-emptive ban was very justified. The ethics behind it do not matter me because of the person in question.
I'm not sure what your experiences with Chagen were like Whale, and you may dislike the pre-emptive ban more than I can see on screen now, but I have plenty of reasons why I agree with it.
I thought you made a good point, but realistically A) Chagen needs waaaaay more help than we can give him and B) Anonymous, being the admin, has to think about the site first.
Must be a cultural thing then because my country, you cant fire anyone becaise of what they did at other companies.
@Tno: Don't really care what Chagen did on other sites, only care what he did here
And can I nick his catboy avie? 'Cause it's cyoot~
☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
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☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
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What has he actually done thats so wrong anyway?
I know he is basically a horrible man but why?
☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
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The only thing that bugs me about this is I don't exactly know why you are defending Chagen, being able to know why would help me understand your side of this whole "thing".
I'm just not very happy with people being banned for what they have done on other sites while doing nothing wrong here. To me, its a violation of the whole innocent till proven guility thing.
@INUH: I see
Pre-emptively banning Hlrest may have been a bit of an overreaction (though to be honest I had been watching him from day one expecting him to slip up and get in trouble). I had considered pre-emptively banning people who had histories of causing trouble on other TVT-affiliated sites, and he was the first. Now I'm not sure how great an idea that is, given that in all irony, something intended to nip strife in the bud actually caused it.
^Saw that. He might be actually remorseful, but this must be given time.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
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Getting into a heated debate about it would really take a lot of effort.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
大學的年同性戀毛皮
aaaaa
☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
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大學的年同性戀毛皮
aaaaa
*shrug*
Just seems like an unnecessary middle step to me. But it's Anon's decision.
大學的年同性戀毛皮
aaaaa
☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
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I remember when he gave his first speech after the 2nd ban he got on IJBM2 when he said he desired nothing more than to change and atone for the atrocities he did with the whole ....thing that he did on another site. I believed him then, thinking "this might be it, he finally changed", only to have shit thrown in my face....again, a week later when he resumed to do the whining, persecution and argument triggers again.
I'm sorry for those on the "give him another chance" side, but I think this was a good course of action. I will debate the reasoning behind pre-emptive bans with the other mods, and we will keep you posted on the decision.
大學的年同性戀毛皮
aaaaa
As far as I'm concerned, I don't think this even constitutes a pre-emptive ban. At least some of his prior bans have been for overt bigotry, for example, which isn't something that just goes away of its own accord, especially not in the space of however few days it was between his leaving IJBM and coming here, so that was already a known reason to ban him.
I do see Anonus' point that if he made the decision out of a desire to avert drama it clearly hasn't been 100% a success, but I support the mods' decision in this instance.
And, to echo INUH, speaking as a TVT mod, our refusal to ban Chagen over there after his initial offences was, not the worst, but certainly among the worst of the many, many mistakes we made during our time as mods.