knotty conversation about transhumanism n' nationalism n' stuff

Tachyon

i realize here i'm ignoring Odradek's very valid and reasonable point

Mr. Darcy

Tachyon said:

mmm... correct me if i'm wrong but you seem to be assuming these machines are intelligent in the same way that human beings are intelligent, rather than simply very efficient at performing certain tasks they've been programmed to perform

Yes, for the sake of argument, as the term robot overlords seems to imply the whole Singularity sci-fi package.

Tachyon

fair point

Tanya

Mr. Darcy said:

Tachyon said:

mmm... correct me if i'm wrong but you seem to be assuming these machines are intelligent in the same way that human beings are intelligent, rather than simply very efficient at performing certain tasks they've been programmed to perform

Yes, for the sake of argument, as the term robot overlords seems to imply the whole Singularity sci-fi package.

And the process through we understand a higher being controlling humans can only be viewed from the perspective of a human.

You even admit that advanced A.I. might have an alien of way of thinking, so I don't think it's fair to hold them to the same terms that can only be observed through our human perspectives.

Hexartes

It strikes me as somewhat unreasonable that you'd think a society with no money where all basic necessities are attended to by robot overlords is not only ideal, but also the only acceptable kind of society.

Hexartes

Miko said:

Civilization existed for like a millennium before money was a big thing, I think. 

Nope. Money- possibly not in the form we know it, but in some form- is basically as old as civilization itself. Moreover, it seems like you're displacing the real issue here. Money isn't an inherent bad; greed is.

Tanya

to be honest, I don't think money will be complete undone with, but I would rather hope that the standard of living is raised to the point where avarice is rewarded with superficial items, rather than just the ability to sustain yourself.

Tachyon

^^ it depends how you define money, really

bartering has existed since forever

^ agreed with that

Miss Miko Mayonegg

Kexruct said:

It strikes me as somewhat unreasonable that you'd think a society with no money where all basic necessities are attended to by robot overlords is not only ideal, but also the only acceptable kind of society.

It couldn't be bad, and would certainly be better than society now, where people starve and suffer and die and get oppressed.

Tachyon

i think it would be bad

but in any case if the only acceptable society is your ideal one, you're setting the bar pretty high

Odradek

I've never not gotten the impression that theorists of AI are thrashing around in the dark and blowing out any candles coming from sources they dislike.

Sredni Vashtar

Small aside: Has anybody taken into account the fact that even if we have miraculous AI and life-changing surgeries to perfect our bodies, this would still be a First World thing? It's not equal. How many people would really benefit?

Tachyon

mo raised a similar point in the original Emotional Problems discussion:

mojave music said:

the only good thing transhumanism has ever done is inspire Dresden Codak.

transhumanism is basically "I like being privileged, but I'm not privileged enough just yet."

mojave music said:

yeah my main point is that every "end game" I've seen proposed for transhumanism seems like it would just result in taking the current class divide and just ripping it into a fissure.

It's hard to rise above your station in the best of countries now. Imagine trying to do it in a world where wealthy people are actually smarter, stronger, and generally better in most measurable ways than you instead of just thinking they are.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

Sredni Vashtar said:

Small aside: Has anybody taken into account the fact that even if we have miraculous AI and life-changing surgeries to perfect our bodies, this would still be a First World thing? It's not equal. How many people would really benefit?

Everyone. This keeps getting brought up but there wouldn't be any class divisions in the new world.

Tachyon

so you said

you didn't say how this was supposed to come about, though

Tachyon

also stating the obvious but 'robot overlords' are in a position of obvious privilege

Miss Miko Mayonegg

The robot overlords are non-human so they have no desire for greed, only the order for which they were programmed.

Tachyon

then surely the real overlords are the engineers responsible?

Miss Miko Mayonegg

The robot overlords eliminate class by overhauling the infrastructure and redistributing wealth and resources. This means significant losses for only the richest 0.1% of the population or so, which alone would provide so many people with food and comfort.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

Tachyon said:

then surely the real overlords are the engineers responsible?

Well, that is where I come in. ^_^ I shall program the robot overlords and then resume my humble Touhou playing.

Tachyon

making you absolute dictator

i see

so this is a fantasy

Miss Miko Mayonegg

I wouldn't be a dictator, just the creator of machines who change the world to reflect my ideals.

Obā-san

So dictator by proxy.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

Dictators hurt and kill people.

Tachyon

question

suppose someone tries to overthrow the robots by force

what happens?

Sredni Vashtar

The problem with any system predicated upon the judgements of a single individual or group of individuals is that such systems are predicated upon limited knowledge and viewpoints. People are imperfect, so they cannot create perfection. Attempting to approach equity is noble, but oligarchy and especially autocracy are the worst ways to do it.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

^^ They fail. They are kicked out of society for a period of time. Since all humans are unable to reproduce in this society, there wouldn't come to be an "outside" civilization.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

Perhaps my robot overlords would be designed with other people with similar views as well.

Tachyon

why do they fail?  who kicks them out, and what are the consequences supposing they refuse to leave?

Tachyon

also

>since all humans are unable to reproduce

this is sounding more horrific by the minute

Miss Miko Mayonegg

^^ They fail because the overlords are too strong. The rebels are removed by force and incapable of resisting because they are humans and the rulers are machines.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

^^ The overlords create humans, and do so in such a way that people don't have imperfections.

Salix Babylonika

Tachyon why are you engaging this conversation?

Obā-san

How grotesque.

Tachyon

because i literally do not know when to stop talking

Sredni Vashtar

This seems like an intrinsically terribly flawed utopia, and a fairly boring one at that: Everyone thinking alike means that there's no-one else to talk to with new information, and who wants that but an absolute egotist—and what right-minded supreme egotist would want to be lorded over by someone else's ideals, even if they share them?

Miss Miko Mayonegg

It can't be worse than the nightmares that exist in this world.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

^^ hmm i dunno :o

Sredni Vashtar

See! This is why I don't like utopias: They require "ideal people," and "ideal people" are hideously boring.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

I like to think that we could have a lot more fun because we wouldn't have as many problems and the issues we would be dealing with would be grander things that affect the species.

Tachyon

like how to deal with our species-wide takeover by all-powerful robot eugenicists

Obā-san

Tachyon said:

like how to deal with our species-wide takeover by all-powerful robot eugenicists

Miss Miko Mayonegg

Eugenics isn't a bad thing if there aren't imperfect humans being born and no one is getting killed.

Sredni Vashtar

But then what about everyone that already exists?

These things only work hypothetically.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

The imperfect people, such as myself, die out from old age. ^_^

Tachyon

Miko said:

Eugenics isn't a bad thing if there aren't imperfect humans being born and no one is getting killed.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

no u

Tachyon

you know eugenics has been implemented in America in the past

the aim wasn't to kill people, just to sterilize people who were deemed undesirable for the gene pool



so Miko

in your ideal robot utopia, who gets to say what constitutes an imperfection, and what gives you or any form of government the right to say what people can be brought into this world?

answer me this however you will, and i will drop the subject and be done

Aliroz

mojave music said:

Miko said:

Humans did fine without money until like 5,000 years ago.

Yes but that is because 5,000 years ago is roughly the dawn of civilization.

We could totally eliminate money if we were willing to return to a hunter-gatherer society where only the physically strongest survive and what we would consider horrible atrocities are far more commonplace than they are now, but I feel that most people are not okay with such a thing (myself included).

To be pedantic, it's more like 6000 years ago.

Aliroz

Miko said:

Eugenics isn't a bad thing if there aren't imperfect humans being born and no one is getting killed.

You forgot "or sterilized"

and you forgot to define "imperfection" and whether we would, say, cure those who are intellectually disabled by somehow making it so that their minds can function on the typical level like so-called "average" people; or via abortion in the womb.  Because there's a big goshadarn difference.  It's like the difference between giving sight to the blind, and removing the blind.