Sexism in Nerd Culture

Justice4243

Getting off topic, but I find it hilarious when this idealized view gets out of hand, and we have people like "Professor X" affected by it as well.

I don't think he even needs to move those wheels on his own... 

Obā-san

shit when did Mr. Clean gain mutant powers

Mr. Darcy

a8 said:

i am honestly puzzled that the American comics industry hasn't made more of an effort to reach female audiences.  Or, i dunno, have they made more of an effort than i'm giving them credit for?  Or are they incompetent, or what?

They're incompetent. I'm sure they'd love to double the size of their audience, but since creators and editors are drawn from superhero fandom, you're going to get superhero comics, not the kind of adventure stories that appeal more to women, or romance, or slice of life (besides Archie).

That's a big part of why translated manga is bigger in the English-speaking countries than native comics.

Yarrun XIX

Gilda said:

That's a big part of why translated manga is bigger in the English-speaking countries than native comics.

...huh. That explains a lot.

millercross

blagh can't read carry on

RocketRunner

Naney said:

shit when did Mr. Clean gain mutant powers

That's MISTER FUCKIN' CLEAN to you

Viani

Has there been any comics in the Marvel/DC universe that attempted to step out of their familiar borderlines? Besides that one about raccoons?

Justice4243

That depends on how you define those borderlines, exactly.

The DC Vertigo line is full of all kinds of crazy shit. It tends to still be action and drama oriented, but often forgoes having superheros. 

millercross

Marvel has MAX as well, but that's mostly just used as an excuse to write a Punisher title that actually makes sense given the Punisher's character and "setting" for lack of a better word.

Justice4243

There's a girl sittting across from me on the Max (train) who is reading Watchmen.

I can only guess she's doing research to pick up guys at the next comic con.

Because apparently this is now a valid line of thinking in our society.

Hexartes

Walk over and give her a high five.

Tell her Kexruct sent it.

Justice4243

I would but I had to get off at my stop.

It's cool though, she's still out there...

...ridding the Max...

...seeing The Comedian attempt to get his rape on...

Hexartes

Give a random person on the street a high five then.

Justice4243

"Yeah! Girls can TOTALLY read comics about masked heros getting their rape on!"

"Sir? Are you buying tickets for the Chinese New year celebration, or not?"

RocketRunner

Well, hey, melloncollie likes Watchmen. She'd probably never classify herself as a nerd, but still.

Justice4243

Super relevant.

Tachyon

welp

safe to say thread over?

Justice4243

I don't think we can really TOP Ms. "Hey, I'vc played video games since I was 3 or 4 and am not a fake game girl at all." But there's some really interesting stuff in here:

E. Ortiz: What are your thoughts about the fake geek girl or fake gamers controversy?

Courtney:  Well, I honestly can’t blame them. If I saw that photo and didn’t know any of the context, I would assume the same thing that everyone else did. It took me a while to realize that. I was mostly hurt at first. There were some harsh comments (It is the internet after all) about my appearance that I could easily disregard, but others not so much. What bothered me the most was everyone assuming outright that I had no legitimacy as a gamer. There was no question of it, they had no doubts that I had never touched a controller for any reason other than to drool all over it.

As someone who lives immersed in gaming, it felt like they were denying me my own identity. It was odd feeling to say the least.

These didn’t really show up until I was 18 either, so I was fairly embarrassed to have my awkward teenage self shoved in my face every time I tried to peruse a meme site.

Interesting that while she was initially hurt, she realizes her knee jerk reaction would have been the same.

Also, this is the first time I've actually seen the photo in question, and damn is she pretty.

Viani

People think that since extremely immersed guy gamers tend to be ugly (liberally ugly, etc.), that their counterparts can't be hot, assuming that gaming communities are as simplified as class templates.


Edit: Speaking of knee-jerk reaction, I think I am done being xenophobic about the discussion in this thread, and see no problems.

Tachyon

Xenophobic?

i doubt guy gamers are any more ugly than anyone else.  i can see the hardcore enthusiasts not taking much care of their appearances, maybe.

Justice4243

I'm not sure how I'd react if I saw the photo without context...

I probably wouldn't have assumed she never played a game in her life and had simply borrowed her brother's X-Box, but probably wouldn't have assumed she was a hardcore gamer either.

Though, I guess that's more a lack of assumptions... I probably would have assumed she played X-Box, and not a lot more...

Justice4243

a8 said:

Xenophobic?

i doubt guy gamers are any more ugly than anyone else.  i can see the hardcore enthusiasts not taking much care of their appearances, maybe.

This might simply have a lot to do with not leaving the house all that often.

Tachyon

i assumed the photo was either a joke, or possibly staged for advertising purposes.

Justice42 said:

This might simply have a lot to do with not leaving the house all that often.

That was my reasoning.

Justice4243

I hadn't even seen it to this point.

Weird that she echoed the "She took the photo just to have sex with a nerd!"

Like...even if that WAS the case, that just means there's some lucky nerd out their. I don't get why people think that's some sort of horrible insult.

Viani

From what I observe on Facebook, gaming girls who aren't attractive tend to hate the glamorous gamer girls and want to lash out at them. I think it's like one of those No True Scotsman things. GMH posted a picture of that once which had a picture of a girl being hot and kissing a controller considered "not a girl gamer" and the other side of a deranged messy-haired girl gamer going on a gaming bender being called a "true gamer girl"

Tachyon

The assumption was apparently that 'fake geek girls' were desperate and deceitful.

You have to wonder whether there wasn't an element of wishful thinking there.

Justice4243

I agree with Courtney here in that there's no reason a "gamer girl" needs to look like a mess.

Friday goes to Magic the Gathering draft tourneys every now and again, doesn't change the fact that she spends one to two hours before she feels she's ready to leave the house.

Viani

Well, there could be gold diggers or antagonistic whores who envelop in the girl gamer roots to attract a nerd and then proceed to feed on him financially.

But isn't that social darwinism?

OBSERVE, the goldus diggeronus adapting and metamorphosizing into a familiar form of her prey, the stationarium nerdium, to lure him into her financial siphoning trap. When the stationarium nerdium trusts the goldus diggeronus and falls for the ruse, she captures him and drains him of all he has.

Justice4243

a8 said:

The assumption was apparently that 'fake geek girls' were desperate and deceitful.

You have to wonder whether there wasn't an element of wishful thinking there.

This has kind of been the white elephant in the room this entire thread.

I mean, the "geek" group isn't exactly known for super hot nerdy guys. In fact, it's known for the oppisite. Now, I'm not saying they don't exist or even that that stereotype is mostly true or anything, but it's sort of hard to believe anyone would put in effort to prey on the penises of nerds in general. 

And for whatever bizarre reason the DID want to put in effort, it probably wouldn't take a great deal of effort to find someone willing to share a bed with you if you're reasonably decent looking and at least have seen all the Star Wars movies...

Hell, "reasonably good looking" is probably enough...I don't think you'd have to fake anything.

Viani

Maybe it's the Jock vs Nerd thing going on.

Justice4243

Viani said:

Well, there could be gold diggers or antagonistic whores who envelop in the girl gamer roots to attract a nerd and then proceed to feed on him financially.

But isn't that social darwinism?

OBSERVE, the goldus diggeronus adapting and metamorphosizing into a familiar form of her prey, the stationarium nerdium, to lure him into her financial siphoning trap. When the stationarium nerdium trusts the goldus diggeronus and falls for the ruse, she captures him and drains him of all he has.

Part of the issue here is nerds don't necessarily have a ton of money. I grew up with a bunch of nerds and sadly, none of them (save me) are really doing anything that far out of the average financially. 

Now, if someone say...targeted a person and not the group as a whole, I can sort of see that. But I don't think I'd categorize the person as a "fake geek girl", more a "gold digger" as you mentioned. How she goes about it is not really here nor there.

Hexartes

I think part of it is that people like the idea of being oppressed, so they make up oppressors, in this case, fake geek girls, to lash out against.

Justice4243

Viani said:

Maybe it's the Jock vs Nerd thing going on.

I'm not sure I follow.

Justice4243

Kexruct said:

I think part of it is that people like the idea of being oppressed, so they make up oppressors, in this case, fake geek girls, to lash out against.

Kinda shitty attempt at a fake oppressor, "HELP, HELP! I'M BEING OPPRESSED BY A GIRL WHO WANTS TO HAVE SEX WITH ME WITHOUT COMMITTING TO THE SAME LEVEL OF INTEREST IN MY HOBBIES AS ME!"

I think Toph sums it up best at the end of this clip:

Viani

Justice42 said:

Viani said:

Maybe it's the Jock vs Nerd thing going on.

I'm not sure I follow.

Low Self Esteem: "Attractive Girls are evil and only want to hurt you"

Justice4243

Ah.

Justice4243

Justice4243

Seriously though, why do games still do this?

Or is it something they've become better at?

MtG is still guilty of it at times.

ProfessorGator

Presumably because teenage boy hormones continue to be profitable.

This reminds me of a Facebook comment I saw recently that commended Sully from Fire Emblem Awakening for having practical armor. Now, her armor isn't overly sexified, which is good. But I wouldn't quite say it's practical. Because you see...

She has Reimu armpits.

Justice4243

I'm OK with women being a scantly clad for whatever reason, if one is say...a Super Hero or a Mage, armor is often kind of pointless, so if that character is scantily clad, whatever.

But if you're a knight? You kind of NEED that armor.

And it's not like Magic does every female knight this way...

Can't people just accept that armor is suppose to COVER things? 

Tachyon

Probably depends on the artist.

Skimpy armour is ridiculous, but it's an established genre convention.

Justice4243

a8 said:

Probably depends on the artist.

Skimpy armour is ridiculous, but it's an established genre convention.

...Did you just appeal to tradition in regards to skimpy armor?

Tachyon

i'm not saying it's justified or acceptable, i'm saying it's an established practice, which it is.  i don't see how that can even be in dispute?

i bet some artists don't even think twice about it.  They're probably more concerned with making their chainmail-bikini-clad character stand out from the millions of others.

ProfessorGator

About the example I mentioned earlier: Fire Emblem usually puts their female characters in practical clothing, even the mages. Which is why it's a little weird that Sully has exposed armpits. Though to be fair, it could be much worse.

Justice4243

^^Yeah, but that doesn't mean everyone needs to sit back and accept it. 

I'm not expecting my forum posts to magical make it go away, but people got sick of the damsel in distress shtick too, and it's at least less prevalent now. I guess the same is more or less happening with chainmail-bikini's but they're still around like the damsel in distress. 

I guess your post just seems kinda defeatist? 

Tachyon

^^ It certainly could, although an exposed armpit is a pretty glaring weakness if your enemies are using arrows.

^ It wasn't my intention to suggest that we need to 'sit back and accept it', nor that it's in some way inevitable.

In fact i'm not sure how i created that impression when that's basically the opposite of every opinion i've expressed in this thread up until this point?  But i guess i can see how that post could have come across that way.

*serial post editor*

Justice4243

I guess then I'm not following what you're getting at. You obviously think it's ridiculous, too, but are also explaining why it's still around or that some artist still think it's OK? 

I'm not suggesting we form a lynch mob to attack artists who draw this or anything, but I'm not sure the visual image of an artist who shrugs their shoulders and says "Well, it's ALWAYS been like this and lots of artist still do it," helps their case any.

Tachyon

i wasn't attempting to defend anyone.  You drew attention to the inconsistency in MtG card designs, i was suggesting an explanation.  Established traditions are difficult to shake.

That doesn't mean there's no point in trying, or that the artists responsible can't be criticized for it.  An explanation needn't be a justification.

Tachyon

i mean, really, i think it would be less prevalent if the thinking was 'well it's ALWAYS been like this and lots of artists still do it', but in many cases i don't suppose it's even that.  Very often, entrenched genre conventions are taken for granted and simply aren't questioned.

Justice4243

i mean, really, i think it would be less prevalent if the thinking was 'well it's ALWAYS been like this and lots of artists still do it', but in many cases i don't suppose it's even that.  Very often, entrenched genre conventions are taken for granted and simply aren't questioned.

OK, now THAT makes a bit more sense.

Oddly enough, I think this might be one where complaining on the internet might actually be a solution in the long run.

At least stuff like the Hawkeye initiative are going to get enough attention that someone at Marvel or DC might get a hint and also a generation of possible future artists will take the lessons to heart. 

That comic helps, too. Though, obviously on it's own it doesn't have the same impact of the Hawkeye  initiative but it at least exposes the notion that armor that doesn't do much more then cover a couple spots isn't actually that practical.