post in this thread if you think naney is hot

Corporal Forsythe

republicans exist in large amounts in other places

Provo, UT heads up the top twenty-five conservative cities with 86% of the vote going to conservative presidential candidates in 2004, followed by Lubbock, TX at 74.81% conservative support, and Abilene, TX in third with 72.80% of its voters choosing conservative candidates.

Lubbock is the birthplace of rock and roll, 

Princess Alice

Welp

Now I know what cities to avoid like the fucking plauge

Corporal Forsythe

I wouldn't use this list as any sort of gauge for safety or livability 

For the most liberal cities, Detroit is listed as #1 and Gary, Indiana as #2. Berkeley is a very distant third. Here's the list: http://alt.coxnewsweb.com/statesman/metro/081205libs.pdf

lee4hmz

Provo is very, very Mormon. Being anything but there isn't recommended. Even Salt Lake City isn't quite as devout, I hear.

Corporal Forsythe

Yeah, that's true. Lubbock is a probably the most concentrated urban presence when it comes to Southern Baptists and the mainstream Christianity as a whole but still lagging way behind Provo on that chart. 

Previous Calica

Provo's where Brigham Young University is, isn't it?  That's going to tip the scales towards Mormonism, since that school is owned by the Church.

Corporal Forsythe

Well, Lubbock has not only Texas Tech (itself a large conservative university) but home to three other full universities, all of them Christian-based. All of these universities get along well with each other, too 

Viani

Kexruct said:

This is the Republicanest thing I've ever seen.

Justice4243

I like the lawyer in the lower right hand corner counting his money in the middle of all this.

 

He's either JUST finished a case where apparently his client paid in bundles of cash or he bet someone an absurd amount of money the Messiah would show up today and his buddy just coughed up the cash.

Sredni Vashtar

Apparently, if you counted up all of the revenue taken by the federal government from tax dollars, the top ten blue states would account for 45% of the monies collected; if you factored in all the states that have consistently leaned Democratic in the past twenty years—another ten or so—that percentage skyrockets to something like 75%. Meanwhile, the percentage of federal money that goes to these states is comparatively minuscule. In particular, the amount of money that states like Texas and Mississippi receive in federal monies compared to what they contribute is something in the neighbourhood of a 2:1 ratio or higher.

Really, there is something shockingly hypocritical about this. I'm fine with taking the philosophical position that taxation is bad and should be limited, but this is just ridiculous.

Sredni Vashtar

Viani said:

Kexruct said:

This is the Republicanest thing I've ever seen.

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.

Obā-san

you know what, i thought i recognized the first one from somewhere and i couldn't place it and i guess it's because i've seen the edited one before.

Corporal Forsythe

Sredni Vashtar said:

Apparently, if you counted up all of the revenue taken by the federal government from tax dollars, the top ten blue states would account for 45% of the monies collected; if you factored in all the states that have consistently leaned Democratic in the past twenty years—another ten or so—that percentage skyrockets to something like 75%. Meanwhile, the percentage of federal money that goes to these states is comparatively minuscule. In particular, the amount of money that states like Texas and Mississippi receive in federal monies compared to what they contribute is something in the neighbourhood of a 2:1 ratio or higher.

Really, there is something shockingly hypocritical about this. I'm fine with taking the philosophical position that taxation is bad and should be limited, but this is just ridiculous.

Wherever you get your information about Texas taking in more than it puts out is hilariously wrong. In fact, this very thing was brought up over the possibility of Texas seceding (which won't happen but I can always dream) and one of the facts regarding the issue is that Texas' output exceeds what it takes in. This shouldn't even be surprising considering the natural resources and agriculture that Texas has (including and especially oil) -- what Mississippi most certainly does not have. 

Sredni Vashtar

Hmm... you are correct about Texas. Mea culpa. While Texas have absolutely no right to make overtures to secession—seriously, that's just deliciously stupid—they actually have a marginal right to whinge about their situation, as do most large states with strong industrial and commercial centres (which was my point).

I believe that the state in question was actually Louisiana, which is a whole different kettle of fish. Then again, both have had some *amazingly* obnoxious and self-righteous governors in the past decade, so at least my stupidity, while unjustified, at least has some moon logic guiding it.

Corporal Forsythe

Oh, I think we have every right to consider secession. For one, we're a fiercely independent state and has been proven, we do so well for ourselves that it benefits the rest of the union. There's nothing "deliciously stupid" about considering that we should keep all of that for ourselves. That's just smart business, actually.  So naturally it bothers us when states that are perpetually broke and broken try to push their non-working and self-destructive political and economic policies and burdens on to us, the very same that currently define wastelands like Detroit and Camden.  

Obā-san

dude isn't that like treason

Viani

I aspire to become a politician, so I can get a fat cut of all that free money....T_T

Sredni Vashtar

Uh...

Naney said:

dude isn't that like treason

Yes. Yes it is. And that is part of the reason why it is stupid.

The other part of the issue is that Texas is really not very well-run, on a state level. The public education system is godawful, the way that the legislature has treated state taxes is wretched and mediaeval, and the death penalty is on the table for middle-schoolers, which is unspeakable. America might be in decline, but an independent Texas would basically be Mexico with more English speakers.

Oh, and every branch of the US military would be on you like death from above, as you should well know, Corporal. You would, to put it bluntly, be fucked over more ways than every prostitute in every red-light district in the Western Hemisphere in the past thirty years, with extreme prejudice.

Imipolex G

Texans irritate me

Tachyon

Wasn't Lucky Revenant from Texas?

And isn't it up to Texas whether they secede or not?  And if not, why the hell isn't it?

It wouldn't be in anyone's best interests in the long term, but i don't get why Americans are always all 'gasp, treason' about this.

SF_Sorrow

Because it is technically treason.

Also because it brings connotations to a rather tense period in US history.

Tachyon

i know about the Civil War.

i guess i can see why it's considered treason from a historical perspective, i just don't see how that's appropriate.

Different countries, different ways of doing things, i guess.

Corporal Forsythe

Sredni Vashtar said:

Uh...

Naney said:

dude isn't that like treason

Yes. Yes it is. And that is part of the reason why it is stupid.

hahahahahah treason 

Funny how the Texan Nationalist Movement, which has a significant sized membership and they're just the largest, far from the only one crying out for secession. Somehow none of them have been hauled in for "treason." FYI America isn't either a nanny state like the UK who polices everything everyone says or a crushing authoritarian dictatorship that punishes people for wrongthink. Yet.

The other part of the issue is that Texas is really not very well-run, on a state level.

Which is why out economic output is greater than our consumption. Just awful!

Which is also why even the tiniest ISDs in the smallest of towns have access to education funds that those in other states can only dream about. Of course, a good chunk of this is wasted on the Friday Night Lights culture that pervades here, but the students certainly don't suffer for it. But then -
 

The public education system is godawful,

Nevermind me! A few counties in Texas have raised a fuss about teaching evolution in past memory, that means the entire state-wide school system is a complete washout. Welp!

the way that the legislature has treated state taxes is wretched and mediaeval,

Compared to who? California, who's a money sink that's always broke? Or Michigan? I don't know what dubious sources you get your information from (probably from the same source that erroneously told you that Texas hoovers in more funds than they put out) but the way Texas handles its state taxes seems to be working pretty damn well for us and the rest of the nation. But keep holding on to that fairy tale I guess

and the death penalty is on the table for middle-schoolers, which is unspeakable.

I haven't heard this. Trying 17 year aged offenders, yes, but middle schoolers? This is the only thing I'm going to play the "citation needed" card on.

 America might be in decline, but an independent Texas would basically be Mexico with more English speakers.

whatever the hell this means

Oh, and every branch of the US military would be on you like death from above, as you should well know, Corporal. You would, to put it bluntly, be fucked over more ways than every prostitute in every red-light district in the Western Hemisphere in the past thirty years, with extreme prejudice.

Uh huh. I made it pretty clear a few posts back, before this discussion ever started that the idea of Texas seceding was completely unrealistic. It's a sentiment that I support, though, until I get blown up by a drone for treason or wrongthink or something like that. 

glennmagusharvey

the very same that currently
define wastelands like Detroit and Camden.

You mean wastelands like Boston, New York City, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, and Denver?

Funny how the Texan Nationalist Movement, which has a significant sized
membership and they're just the largest, far from the only one crying
out for secession. Somehow none of them have been hauled in for
"treason."

That's because the 1st Amendment guarantees the right to open one's mouth and say whatever one wishes, even if it exposes oneself as being full of stupid.

a nanny state like the UK who polices everything everyone says

Really?  That's news to me.  The UK must have changed drastically since I last visited it a decade ago.

Nevermind me! A few counties in Texas have raised a fuss about teaching
evolution in past memory, that means the entire state-wide school system
is a complete washout. Welp!

True, there are some good schools in Texas.  But:
1. A good education system doesn't only educate some people well.  It educates all people well.
2. This isn't the only instance of content fsckery on the part of the Texan school boards.  They've also been trying to play up Ronald Reagan's conservatism and his role in the 1980s in U.S. history textbooks.

Uh huh. I made it pretty clear a few posts back, before this discussion
ever started that the idea of Texas seceding was completely unrealistic.

Good to know we both acknowledge that it's a crazy idea that's almost dead in the water, at the very least.  That said, I'll have to disagree with your support, at least as long as my friend is living in the Houston area.

Tachyon

Actually, while 'polices everything everyone says' is an exaggeration, that description is otherwise pretty much accurate.  We have mostly free speech here, but there technically are restrictions on it that don't exist in the US.

In any case, few Britons would dispute 'nanny state'.

Corporal Forsythe

Really? That's news to me. The UK must have changed drastically since I last visited it a decade ago.

You have no idea.

http://www.itv.com/news/london/update/2013-01-17/appeal-after-offensive-language-on-train/

British Transport Police is appealing for witnesses to come forward after a group of men used derogatory and racist language on a train between Wimbledon and Hampton Wick.

The incident took place around 7pm on Wednesday 2 January. Police say a group of men were seen talking about a fight and heard using offensive language.

PC Jonathan Prettejohns says an investigation's been launched following a report that a group of four men, travelling on the 6:13pm Waterloo to Shepperton service, used foul and racist language as they discussed details of an earlier altercation.

Police are currently viewing CCTV footage from the train and speaking with witnesses. They're urging anyone who was travelling on the service at the time to contact them.

Notice how they don't care about the violence that occurred, just the fact that a racist epithet was spoken. Someone said a hateful word! To arms!

So let me guess what the counterargument to this one is -- ITV is a tabloid source like the Daily Mail or Telegraph, and this never really happened, right? Along with those other events in the past few years in the UK where people are hauled in for the terrible crime of saying mean things, I suppose. I can find more if you'd like. Hell, I remember one of an troll who used twitter to insult some football player with racist insults and everyone was going on about how the bobbies were going to drag him in ... until they realized the guy might live in America or something.

Corporal Forsythe

You mean wastelands like Boston, New York City, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, and Denver?

No, I mean Detroit, Camden, and even Gary. I thought was rather clear about this when I said "Detroit" and "Camden".

Tachyon

ITV is more reliable than the Mail (so is the Telegraph, for that matter, which really doesn't deserve the comparison, and i say this as a liberal).

And that story really doesn't sound unlikely to me, but it's worth stressing that you have to be pretty damn racist to fall afoul of our hate speech laws.

Corporal Forsythe

They've also been trying to play up Ronald Reagan's conservatism and his role in the 1980s in U.S. history textbooks.

Damn revisionists, trying to push the myth that Reagan did something in the 1980s!

Corporal Forsythe

a8 said:

ITV is more reliable than the Mail (so is the Telegraph, for that matter, which really doesn't deserve the comparison, and i say this as a liberal).

And that story really doesn't sound unlikely to me, but it's worth stressing that you have to be pretty damn racist to fall afoul of our hate speech laws.

....not from all these funny news reports I've seen. Wasn't there something in the news a while back about someone getting in trouble for playing Styx's 80's song "I think I'm turning Japanese"? I seem to remember that somehow. 

glennmagusharvey

> Damn revisionists, trying to push the myth that Reagan did something in the 1980s!

No one disagrees that Reagan did stuff in the 80s.  It's about how much everyone else did, and it's about tweaking language to suggest one thing or another.  (Ever notice how changing a few words to things with the same meaning but different connotations can totally change a sentence?)

Tachyon

^^ Well, i certainly don't remember anything like that.  Couldn't find anything about that on Google, either.

Sometimes people do go overboard and mistakes are made, definitely.  There was the recent incident where social workers removed children from their foster parents because they belonged to the UK Independence Party, which rightly drew an outcry.  But for the most part, the laws are invoked in cases of extremely blatant racism or outright incitements to violence.

Corporal Forsythe

a8, well, you live there so I'm going to go with what you say on the matter of language and the law.  However, the fact that social workers removed children like you say for reasons you stated is fucking horrifying. 

Corporal Forsythe

Here's a new cartoonist I've never seen. I like his cartooning, it's very appealing and stylized. 

I like his message too but that goes without saying

Princess Alice

oh sweet jesus

my intelligence hurts

He can't be for real, right? Asay cannot seriously be suggesting that the best way to handle a school shooting is for the teacher to bring a gun so the students can fight back. 'Cause you know, I'm sure a bunch of 12-year-olds who are already scared shitless would be able to accurately fire a gun at someone who's shooting at them, right? It wouldn't totally just make things worse, right? NO, OF COURSE IT COUDLN'T

And another thing...Mrs. Jones leaves a loaded gun in her purse under the table? Well, good goin' Jones, you've already endangered your entire student body! Think about it: unless she literally carries the purse on her person at all times, the gun is left unattended whenever she leaves the desk. Any random asshole could find it and start shooting up the place. And if she did carry the purse on her at all times, WHY DIDN'T SHE HAVE IT JUST NOW, WHEN SHE ACTUALLY COULD HAVE USED IT??

i just DONT' UNADERTSTAND AJIFEQPOWRYHSA

Corporal Forsythe

I think what Asay is getting across is there is a mentality that folks will find more wrong with a teacher packing heat than some nutcase causing a massacre at a school. He's chosen a very obtuse way to convey this point, however. Nobody would keep a gun in a purse (who has a concealed carry license) and certainly not in the easy reach of children. All the expository license in the world doesn't help Asay's example here. 

And as for armed teachers in elementary classrooms, that's how they do it in Israel and even though they live in a region surrounded by countries whose only unifying trait is "destroy Israel", they don't seem to suffer the same amount of school massacres that we do. In Switzerland, everyone is armed all the time as well, so having a firearm present in a school (handled by those who should be handling it) does not elevate risk one bit. The whole "what if someone grabs the gun out of the blue and starts a massacre" isn't an impossibility, but the likelihood of this occurring is practically nonexistent. 

Princess Alice

That seems sensible enough, though I'll just point out that the "handled by those who should be handling it" bit is vital. Leaving it in a purse under a desk (as portrayed in the cartoon) is incredibly negligent.

Viani

glennmagusharvey said:

the very same that currently
define wastelands like Detroit and Camden.

You mean wastelands like Boston, New York City, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Seattle, and Denver?

Funny how the Texan Nationalist Movement, which has a significant sized
membership and they're just the largest, far from the only one crying
out for secession. Somehow none of them have been hauled in for
"treason."

That's because the 1st Amendment guarantees the right to open one's mouth and say whatever one wishes, even if it exposes oneself as being full of stupid.

a nanny state like the UK who polices everything everyone says

Really?  That's news to me.  The UK must have changed drastically since I last visited it a decade ago.

Nevermind me! A few counties in Texas have raised a fuss about teaching
evolution in past memory, that means the entire state-wide school system
is a complete washout. Welp!

True, there are some good schools in Texas.  But:
1. A good education system doesn't only educate some people well.  It educates all people well.
2. This isn't the only instance of content fsckery on the part of the Texan school boards.  They've also been trying to play up Ronald Reagan's conservatism and his role in the 1980s in U.S. history textbooks.

Uh huh. I made it pretty clear a few posts back, before this discussion
ever started that the idea of Texas seceding was completely unrealistic.

Good to know we both acknowledge that it's a crazy idea that's almost dead in the water, at the very least.  That said, I'll have to disagree with your support, at least as long as my friend is living in the Houston area.

MULTIPLE QUOTES?! TROLL! TROLL!

HE'S TROLLING! RELEASE THE FAST EDDIE UPON THINE SWEET ASS!

Corporal Forsythe

I take it that back on TVT this sort of discussion would have snowballed to hell and wrapped its way around back by now 

Viani

There were a lot more extreme leftists, extreme rightists, pseudopoliticals, misanthropic anarchists, and unrighteous uninformed people on TVT. On here, people are a lot less willing to stir up trouble because of how few people there are.

Princess Alice

Corporal Forsythe said:

I take it that back on TVT this sort of discussion would have snowballed to hell and wrapped its way around back by now 

One of Fast Eddie's given reasons for refusal to add a proper quote system to his homemade forum software was "whenever you see a post with a bunch of quotes all followed by responses, you know you're dealing with a troll." We always had a good laugh about that, mostly because it doesn't make any sense, but also because that's always been GMH's MO in debates and he's, y'know, not a troll.

Corporal Forsythe

That's the very first time I've ever heard that taking time to respond to every one of a person's points as "trolling". Fast Eddie would hate upper-level math classes.

Princess Alice

And, as further proof that political cartoons are terrible regardless of whether or not one agrees with the intended message, have a mixed metaphor so confused it doesn't even know what it is anymore:

"It's a police chase! Obama's represented by the cops, and the sequester is the suspect! Except wait, the sequester is an asteroid, and Obama's trying to stop it before it hits the earth! But Obama's police car is actually on top of a bigger asteroid, so he's going to hit the Earth even harder! This makes so much sense."

Sredni Vashtar

Sredni Vashtar said:

hahahahahah treason 

Funny how the Texan Nationalist Movement, which has a significant sized membership and they're just the largest, far from the only one crying out for secession. Somehow none of them have been hauled in for "treason." FYI America isn't either a nanny state like the UK who polices everything everyone says or a crushing authoritarian dictatorship that punishes people for wrongthink. Yet.

The other part of the issue is that Texas is really not very well-run, on a state level.

Which is why out economic output is greater than our consumption. Just awful!

Which is also why even the tiniest ISDs in the smallest of towns have access to education funds that those in other states can only dream about. Of course, a good chunk of this is wasted on the Friday Night Lights culture that pervades here, but the students certainly don't suffer for it. But then -
 

The public education system is godawful,

Nevermind me! A few counties in Texas have raised a fuss about teaching evolution in past memory, that means the entire state-wide school system is a complete washout. Welp!

the way that the legislature has treated state taxes is wretched and mediaeval,

Compared to who? California, who's a money sink that's always broke? Or Michigan? I don't know what dubious sources you get your information from (probably from the same source that erroneously told you that Texas hoovers in more funds than they put out) but the way Texas handles its state taxes seems to be working pretty damn well for us and the rest of the nation. But keep holding on to that fairy tale I guess

and the death penalty is on the table for middle-schoolers, which is unspeakable.

I haven't heard this. Trying 17 year aged offenders, yes, but middle schoolers? This is the only thing I'm going to play the "citation needed" card on.

 America might be in decline, but an independent Texas would basically be Mexico with more English speakers.

whatever the hell this means

Oh, and every branch of the US military would be on you like death from above, as you should well know, Corporal. You would, to put it bluntly, be fucked over more ways than every prostitute in every red-light district in the Western Hemisphere in the past thirty years, with extreme prejudice.

Uh huh. I made it pretty clear a few posts back, before this discussion ever started that the idea of Texas seceding was completely unrealistic. It's a sentiment that I support, though, until I get blown up by a drone for treason or wrongthink or something like that. 

A few points:

1. As Americans, you have a right to your opinion and I have the right to mine. I don't think that what you are saying is treasonous, but secession is a form of treason.

2. There is a distinct difference between revenues and functional organisation. You can have a few wealthy people paying a reasonable amount in taxes and a massive number of poor people paying little and still raise decent revenue.

3. A few good schools does not a good system make. The fact that you think that I am referring to Texas' questionable school curriculum only shows your ignorance here. To the contrary, I am referring to the unusually high national dropout rate and high-profile lawsuits filed against the Texas education system. Which leads me to...

4. Raising property taxes on low-income neighbourhoods in order to hypothetically fund failing schools while ignoring higher-income neighbourhoods (due to the lack of publicly-educated students) all while raiding the education budget strikes me as downright feudal.

5. If I recall correctly, the minimum age for the death penalty in Texas is either fourteen or nonexistent (as in several other states). While I cannot recall anyone in the last fifty years being sentenced to death under the age of sixteen—which is still morally aberrant—the mere fact that a child can be executed at all is utterly atrocious. The fact that Texas has executed more people than any other state only makes things more unsettling.

6. Mexico is a borderline failed state with a wealthy minority holding court over a progressively more destitute and desperate minority while still claiming to be a "democratic state."

7. Pardon me for saying this, but I think that there is something more than mildly discomfiting about an employee of the US military saying that they should like their state to secede from the union. Do you have your right to say it? Of course. We are a free country. But by the same token, it is within my rights to call you out for it.

And a few more digressions before I depart:

8. More often than not, I've noticed, states' rights arguments seem to be more about the denial of individual liberties than the expansion of them. I thought that this was relevant, but I'm not sure where I would have put it.

9. Yeah, I fucked up in confusing Louisiana with Texas in my little statistics rant, and I actually appreciate that you brought it up. But that does not discount everything that I say automatically, just as the mistakes that you make do not make me discount everything that you say.

10. I generally think that your opinions are pretty well thought out even if I disagree with them heartily, but I cannot get behind this one to any degree. Feeding into point 7, the fundamental problem with putting allegiance to your state over your country while serving a federal entity should be obvious.

11. This is very personal, but as a person that considers himself pretty patriotic, I think that it should be every American citizen's prerogative to criticise the flaws of the union and attempt to change the country from within to better reflect the ideal, whatever that might be. While some countries seceding from others makes historical and cultural sense elsewhere, in light of the American national spirit, secession just strikes me as a cop-out and an overreaction at the same time. Using it as a rhetorical tactic is even worse, I think; vain threats in order to get what one wants are immature, whether it's an individual doing it or a group. At least real threats show some spine.

I'm sorry, but you really struck a nerve with me. Hard.

Obā-san

he cannot respond for he is no longer among us

now you have WASTED YOUR TIME

dun dun DUNNN

Salix Babylonika

Corporal has apparently been banned and as such will not be responding to your arguments.

Obā-san

unless he is telepathic

Sredni Vashtar

Oh dear.

Welp...

*sigh to end all sighs*

Salix Babylonika

I would like to point out--however futilely--that "Turning Japanese" is by The Vapors, not Styx.

Salix Babylonika

also given that CF is well...himself, I suppose I'm not entirely shocked that he apparently copypasted stuff from a racist blog--I always mentally pictured him as a grumpy old man anyway--but I'm certainly disappointed. Is he permabanned or will that be lifted at some point?

(I will say that this has done little to dispel my opinion of marines on the whole as overly conservative and somewhat misanthropic individuals)