General Religion, Mythology, and occult talk

Idler · 2012-02-20 18:24:00

Robert Anderson (Scotland Yard)
(1841–1918), Dispensational author, lawyer, British intelligence
officer and London CID chief, in charge during Jack the Ripper murders.

Man, he sounds like an interesting guy.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-20 18:29:57

It's probably more an Evangelical thing, but there are sort of flavors of it in all the sects to some extent.

They are pulling the information out of Biblical canon though, even if their interpretations and timing differ.

I would say any flavor of this is reasonable, theologically speaking at least.

The Rapture is certainly a real thing in Biblical cannon anyhow. It just seems silly because those who rant and rave about it are likely somewhat unhinged or are pushing an agenda.

And...you know...they're potentially ignoring scripture...

²³ “Then if anyone tells you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah,’ or ‘There he is,’ don’t believe it. ²⁴ For false messiahs and false prophets will rise up and perform great signs and wonders so as to deceive, if possible, even God’s chosen ones.²⁵ See, I have warned you about this ahead of time.
²⁶ “So if someone tells you, ‘Look, the Messiah is out in the desert,’ don’t bother to go and look. Or, ‘Look, he is hiding here,’ don’t believe it! ²⁷ For as the lightning flashes in the east and shines to the west, so it will be when the Son of Man comes. ²⁸ Just as the gathering of vultures shows there is a carcass nearby, so these signs indicate that the end is near.
²⁹ “Immediately after the anguish of those days,
   the sun will be darkened,
      the moon will give no light,
   the stars will fall from the sky,
      and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
³⁰ And then at last, the sign that the Son of Man is coming will appear in the heavens, and there will be deep mourning among all the peoples of the earth. And they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. ³¹ And he will send out his angels with the mighty blast of a trumpet, and they will gather his chosen ones from all over the world^[i]—from the farthest ends of the earth and heaven.
³² “Now learn a lesson from the fig tree. When its branches bud and its leaves begin to sprout, you know that summer is near. ³³ In the same way, when you see all these things, you can know his return is very near, right at the door. ³⁴ I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass from the scene until all these things take place. ³⁵ Heaven and earth will disappear, but my words will never disappear.
³⁶ “However, no one knows the day or hour when these things will happen, not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows.

Matthew 24:23-36 (NLT)

Idler · 2012-02-20 18:32:33

Well, apparently the bit the Rapture is based on is a piece in Thessalonians describing the final resurrection, but it never says that anyone will be left behind on Earth. The Rapture is Biblical, but the tribulation period is not, as far as I know.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-20 18:35:45

There's definitely some verses that could support the views.

Now, of course, that doesn't automatically make it valid, as I'm sure many theologians would debate their meaning.

However, it seems to enjoy more scriptural support than, say, purgatory.

Idler · 2012-02-20 18:41:59

Hmm...so it mentions a tribulation and a Rapture, but I don't see from where anyone could derive the idea that the Rapture is somehow part of the Tribulation or anything like that.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-20 19:00:17

I'd have research it more to really comment on it.

Some of it could be rather theologically far-fetched or really stretch the meaning of certain verses.

Many sects will have a bunch of rather well constructed interpretations of stuff and have a few kinda screw-ball beliefs.

The Jehovah Witnesses, for instance, really seem to do their homework on many things but don't believe in blood transfusions because of verses that say people aren't suppose to "eat" blood and consider Jesus the same as Archangel Michael simply because Micheal is an Archangel (and of course there can only be one of those) and both he and Jesus are leaders of an Angel army, and there can only be one angel army and on leader of that army...?

Idler · 2012-02-20 19:03:28

Also, the Rapture is supposed to be only the taking of believers, which is not specified in the passage from Thessalonians, except with regard to those who've already died.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-20 19:15:21

I think the context from the chapter point to Christian believers, but only in the broadest sense of the phrase.

The idea that it would only be specific members who "believe unequivocally in X" largely arises from the dogmatic nature of the Churches who think the rapture is coming "soon."

Idler · 2012-02-20 19:21:53

You're probably right. My main issue with it is that it says nothing about what the fate of unbelievers actually will be, whereas modern Rapturites are convinced that then there be a tribulation period etc etc. Really all you can get out of the Bible about the Rapture and Tribulation are that they're both supposed to happen at some point, but that's it; it doesn't justify this extremely specific theology that modern adherents have.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-20 19:27:22

I would say that the Bible is vague at best when it comes to unbelievers and has maybe nothing to say on the matter at worse.

It has quite a bit to say about sinners, but I don't recall any verses that link not believing with sinning.

Mr. Darcy · 2012-02-21 00:04:09

Actually, the great tribulation before the Last Day has been a mainstream Christian belief since the beginning, while the Rapture is an invention of English Dissenters called the Plymouth Brethren around the 1820s.

St. Augustine's City of God Bk. 20 gives a good overview of interpretations of the relevant scripture in the patristic period.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-26 20:39:19

The name Nergal, Nirgal, or Nirgali refers to a deity in Babylon with the main seat of his cult at Cuthah represented by the mound of Tell-Ibrahim. Nergal is mentioned in the Hebrew bible as the deity of the city of Cuth (Cuthah): "And the men of Babylon made Succoth-benoth, and the men of Cuth made Nergal" (2 Kings, 17:30). He is the son of Enlil and Ninlil.

Nergal actually seems to be in part a solar deity, sometimes identified with Shamash, but only a representative of a certain phase of the sun. Portrayed in hymns and myths as a god of war and pestilence, Nergal seems to represent the sun of noontime and of the summer solstice that brings destruction, high summer being the dead season in the Mesopotamian annual cycle.

Nergal was also the deity who presides over the netherworld, and who stands at the head of the special pantheon assigned to the government of the dead (supposed to be gathered in a large subterranean cave known as Aralu or Irkalla). In this capacity he has associated with him a goddess Allatu or Ereshkigal, though at one time Allatu may have functioned as the sole mistress of Aralu, ruling in her own person. In some texts the god Ninazu is the son of Nergal and Allatu/Ereshkigal.

Ordinarily Nergal pairs with his consort Laz. Standard iconography pictured Nergal as a lion, and boundary-stone monuments symbolise him with a mace surmounted by the head of a lion.

Nergal's fiery aspect appears in names or epithets such as Lugalgira, Sharrapu ("the burner," a reference to his manner of dealing with outdated teachings), Erra, Gibil (though this name more properly belongs to Nusku), and Sibitti. A certain confusion exists in cuneiform literature between Ninurta and Nergal. Nergal has epithets such as the "raging king," the "furious one," and the like. A play upon his name—separated into three elements as Ne-uru-gal (lord of the great dwelling) -- expresses his position at the head of the nether-world pantheon.

In the late Babylonian astral-theological system Nergal is related to the planet Mars. As a fiery god of destruction and war, Nergal doubtless seemed an appropriate choice for the red planet, and he was equated by the Greeks either to the combative demigod Heracles (Latin Hercules) or to the war-god Ares (Latin Mars) -- hence the current name of the planet. In Babylonian ecclesiastical art the great lion-headed colossi serving as guardians to the temples and palaces seem to symbolise Nergal, just as the bull-headed colossi probably typify Ninurta.

Nergal's chief temple at Cuthah bore the name Meslam, from which the god receives the designation of Meslamtaeda or Meslamtaea, "the one that rises up from Meslam". The name Meslamtaeda/Meslamtaea indeed is found as early as the list of gods from Fara while the name Nergal only begins to appear in the Akkadian period. Amongst the Hurrians and later Hittites Nergal was known as Aplu, a name derived from the Akkadian Apal Enlil, (Apal being the construct state of Aplu) meaning "the son of Enlil". As God of the plague, he was invoked during the "plague years" during the reign of Suppiluliuma, when this disease spread from Egypt.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-26 20:39:24

The cult of Nergal does not appear to have spread as widely as that of Ninurta, but in the late Babylonian and early Persian period, syncretism seems to have fused the two divinities, which were invoked together as if they were identical. Hymns and votive and other inscriptions of Babylonian and Assyrian rulers frequently invoke him, but we do not learn of many temples to him outside of Cuthah. Sennacherib speaks of one at Tarbisu to the north of Nineveh, but significantly, although Nebuchadnezzar II (606 BC - 586 BC), the great temple-builder of the neo-Babylonian monarchy, alludes to his operations at Meslam in Cuthah, he makes no mention of a sanctuary to Nergal in Babylon. Local associations with his original seat—Kutha—and the conception formed of him as a god of the dead acted in making him feared rather than actively worshipped. Nergal was also called Ni-Marad in Akkadian. Like Lugal Marad in Sumerian, the name means "king of Marad," a city, whose name means "Rebellion" in Akkadian, as yet unidentified. The name Ni-Marad, in Akkadian means "Lord of Marad". The chief deity of this place, therefore, seems to have been Nergal, of whom, therefore, Lugal-Marad or Ni-Marad is another name. Thus, some scholars have drawn the connection of Ni-Marad being yet another deified name for Nimrod, the rebel king of Babylon and Assyria mentioned in Genesis 10: 8-11.

In demonology

Being a deity of the desert, god of fire, which is one of negative aspects of the sun, god of the underworld, and also being a god of one of the religions which rivalled Christianity and Judaism, Nergal was sometimes called a demon and even being identified with Satan. According to Collin de Plancy and Johann Weyer, Nergal was said to be the chief of Hell's "secret police", and said to be "an honorary spy in the service of Beelzebub".

In popular culture

In the Dungeons & Dragons roleplaying game, Nergal is the name of an outcast devil. Additionally, the demigod Jergal of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting derives his name from Nergal.
In the Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy, Nergal is a demon and recurring villain, but later marries Billy's aunt Sis and has a child named Nergal Jr.
In the DC Comics universe, Nergal (also spelled Negal) was originally a Golden Age villain opposing Doctor Fate. He was also shown as a primary antagonist to the Vertigo character John Constantine. He is the primary villain in the Doctor Fate story in Countdown to Mystery mini-series.His name appeared as Nergal in the Hellblazer comics and in the reprint of More Fun Comics #67 in Weird Secret Origins, though in Countdown to Mystery and The Golden Age Doctor Fate Archives, he is referred to as "Negal," even in the latter's reprint of More Fun #67.
In the seventh Fire Emblem video game, Nergal is the name of the main villain; Ereshkigal is the name of his tome (magic weapon), a reference to Nergal's wife, goddess of the Irkalla, land of the dead.
In the MMORPG Lunia, Nergal is the boss of the tenth floors of the Cave of Chaos raid.
A customizable parody video circulated by MoveOn.org has Glenn Beck claiming that the viewer of the video is in league with Nergal, using a convoluted transliteration and translation process from English to Greek to Aramaic and back to English with the letters N G and L added.
In 1988 Finnish gothic rock group Russian Love released their first album entitled Nergal. The album was re-released in 2007 by Finnish record company Plastic Passion and Italian record company Eibon Records.
Nergal is also the stage name of Adam Darski, the vocalist/guitarist of the Polish black/death metal band Behemoth. "And Nergal to me is more important than my real name, which is Adam, and only my parents and my girlfriend Doda call me Adam or Adaś. Most people just call me Nergal or Ner."
Swedish Symphonic metal band Therion wrote a song dedicated to Nergal titled The Siren of the Woods.
In both table top RPGs Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 by Games Workshop Nergal is a direct inspiration to the major chaos god Nurgle.
In Catherine (video game) there is a demon named Nergal, who is the father of Catherine and lord of the Underworld.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-26 20:43:40

Now HERE'S a figure with some range.

He's got Babylonian sources attaching all kinds of nasties to him, Biblical passages with his mention, demonolgists heaping on MORE titles and functions, and a plethora of modern, popular culture references to feed the legend.

The idea that he may have inspired the whole "Sycthe" motif for the grim-reaper is nice thing to have on his resume as well.

Nice when these figures have lots, and lots of history to look at.

PlutoniumFist · 2012-02-26 21:25:57

In Warhammer the Chaos god of pestilence is Nurgle, though that's not as intimidating as being head of Satan's KGB...

Justice4243 · 2012-02-26 21:36:55

Yeah, I remembered he was in WH40K.

But you raise a good point in that there's something to be said for being the demon OTHER demons fear will be looking over their shoulder.

PlutoniumFist · 2012-02-27 00:45:12

I also really like the image of a mace topped with a lion's head. Iron lion mace.

...why does none of this stuff show up in movies? It'd be great.

An idea I had tonight that I've been toying with: space-faring trolls. Apparently some weirdo webcomic had the same idea but, honestly, only dorks read webcomics.

Based on this quote:

Look at them, troll mother said. Look at my sons! You won't find more beautiful trolls on this side of the moon.

...as well as things like Hyperborea, I think that the idea of mythical trolls advancing to the point of space travel and leaving Earth completely could be very interesting. Of course there's the fun stuff you could do with their spaceships and all that, but it could be tied into themes like magic/magical creatures leaving this world...in this case, literally. Or, maybe, the events leading up to their departure became the basis for end-of-the-world legends like Ragnarok.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-27 03:03:29

IT's an interesting prospect. With magic and longevity, one could imagine mythological beings could accomplish a heck of a lot.

I think I read in one of GURPS books that fairy creatures (or at least the ones from the British Isles) often weren't very inventive. It'd be interesting if this was a common trait of many mythological beings, it's a pretty convenient explanation for why humans end up dominating in all these myths in the long wrong. We're simply better at adapting and evolving as a species. Powerful as they may be, the fair folk just can't keep up with us.

I'll have to dig that book up when it's not past my bed-time.

Justice4243 · 2012-03-04 03:27:27

Twilight must be trying to make sense of the large collection of demons and angels that are all said to be the devil!

Silly Twilight! You'll never figure that shit out! The king of this world is FAR too crafty for you to piece the damnable jigsuwbics-cube that is his solid identity.

Here's a fun fact for you. While Jesus and many other heavenly figures have lots of art depicting a pretty universal theme, Satan, the Devil, Lucifer is incredibly hard to pin down over the ages. This might have a lot to do with the idea that it seems likely the those three things weren't ever considered the same thing at the time of the writing of the Bible.

Obviously, we have some themes that are almost universally attributed to "The Devil" now, but of course artists LOVE to deviate from that. And stuff like The Devil having bat-wings only became "A thing" in the 1300s. Before the trident, he had a grapnel. And off and on, depending on who you'd ask and when, he might have been labeled just another tool in God's toolbox.

This book The Devil: A Mask without a Face takes a look at deceptions of the devil over time as well as provides some helpful background. Definitely an interesting read for those interested in such figures, and also series art history buffs. I've barely stared, but am looking forward to reading more.

Some thing that it might not touch on is the amount of Demons in other sources that are "identified" with the devil. There are loads and loads. What's more confusing, is the between different demonology sources "Lucifer" and "Satan" seem to be different entities.

"Lucifer" is associated with the sin "Pride" while Satan gets "Wrath/Anger". It's a complicated web of lots of people influences! Twilight's expression above was often mine if I spent too long coming across the names of demons that where ALSO synonymous with "The Devil".

So, enough devilry, on to fairer talk.

I'll dredge up that GURPs book now...

So the book basically combined a whole bunch of figures (looks like we have a theme going this morning into one usable NPC) such as, The Queen of Air and Darkness, La Belle Dame sans Merci, The White Goddess, Titania and rolled them up into one figure.

Though the "hidebound" characteristic might be something the RPG writers came up with to explain why their character seduces poets (who are very creative and inventive), the character herself is reminiscent of the "cold and uncaring fairy queen" archetype that sees much use in fantasy settings.

D&D has shades of this . Magic the Gathering also has shades.

Interesting to note that one of the links points out that the fey in British isles are rules by an unnamed fairy queen. This could explain why Oberon seems to be featured comparably less media than his consort.

Viani · 2012-03-04 04:59:35

Queen of Air and Darkness?

Obā-san · 2012-03-04 14:40:53

Nergal?

Justice4243 · 2012-03-04 14:43:28

^^The name comes from the King Arthur book I linked above. She's actually a half sister of Arthur and a full sister of Morgan le Fay (a figure I probably should have included above,). The character often gets rolled up and combined with Morgan in recent media.

What the RPG sources seem to be doing is using The Queen, Morgan, and a bunch of female, fairy leaders to come up with characters

While the Queen becoming Morgan is out of ease of not having to make a new character for recent stories, I believe the "fairy queen" archetype that is a combination of many of these figures enjoyed a nice boost from The White Goddess, which I linked above.

The book details a sort of "unknown" goddess figure of the British isles and attempts show sources where a similar figure is described. Problem is, the author isn't really an authority on such things. In all likelihood, this figure doesn't exist.

That doesn't mean Morgan or some of these other characters weren't inspired by mythological Celtic figures. Morgan herself might have started as Mordon. Morgon was originally just a "fairy" or "sorceress", stuff like her being evil would come as her myth was developed for the Arthurian legends.

What seems more likely, is, much like our situation with "the devil", we have multiple figured feeding into a single archetype. We are bearing witness to the creation of a mythological figure, or at least the modern equivalent to such a thing.

^ That actually seems to be the most popular return on Google when searching on the subject.

Justice4243 · 2012-03-17 17:37:45

Tried looking into this "wear green or get pinched" thing today.

Found some interesting contradictions.

From the Christian Science Monitor:

Forgot to wear green on St. Patty’s Day? Don’t be surprised if you get pinched. No surprise, it’s an entirely American tradition that probably started in the early 1700s. St. Patrick’s revelers thought wearing green made one invisible to leprechauns, fairy creatures who would pinch anyone they could see (anyone not wearing green). People began pinching those who didn’t wear green as a reminder that leprechauns would sneak up and pinch green-abstainers.

According to my dictionary on superstitions, pinching is good luck. Apparently it was quite common in seafarer communities where pinching a returned loved one was common to confirm it was really them and not their ghost.

Green, on the other hand, seems to be alternatively good or bad luck depending on who you ask. Mostly, it seems to be considered unlucky (take this with a pinch of salt, I'm only going off one source). It is associated with the fairy people (which would collaborate the above), however it is said that because the fairy and "other malicious wood spirits" wear it, that whomever wears or favors it might fall under their evil thrall.

Apparently a tradition in the British Isles suggests that "anyone who wears green will have to wear black soon afterwards."

Notice, though, that the green = no pinching is an American tradition, which likely has some Irish/Celtic roots that might have got twisted up when they made the journey over the pound.

Or maybe green really works against Leprechauns and they're just more prevalent today. So wearing green is just playing the odds. :P

An amusing Irish superstition for the day: Seeing a single pie by itself is bad luck, but seeing two pies is lucky.

One-Winged Eagle · 2012-03-18 02:52:16

That's really simple to decode. If someone throws a pie at you, you can't eat it.

But if they throw two pies, you can dodge one and catch the other intact, which you then eat.

Justice4243 · 2012-03-24 14:25:25

So, aside from "No blood transfusions" and some rather odd aspects like "The Archangel Michael and Jesus are the same person!" One thing that bugs me about the Jehovah Witnesses is how much they teach that Satan has a hand in everything.

Satan is apparently responsible for churches teaching that the Hell is a place of fiery torment that sinners go to burn forever.

Now, I don't like or agree with that particular belief. But it seems silly to me to humor the idea that Satan infiltrated the idea into Churches.

They also suggest that Satan is responsible for ancestral worship or pretty much any other form of the afterlife that disagrees with what they teach the Bible says.

I'll add that I find this particular part of their teaching odd in that it doesn't seem to be grounded in the scripture. I haven't found anything in the Bible that supports this theory (unless one is an idoleter, maybe), and the paragraphs that cover this particular teaching in their book What does the Bible Really Teach? don't really offer any scripture to support this view, except a handful about how great God is.

One-Winged Eagle · 2012-03-25 02:15:14

I thought "Queen of Air and Darkness" was Mab's title?

Justice4243 · 2012-03-25 13:47:52

I can add another fairy to the list, I guess. :P

Mab has gotten the title in a few works, but the problem is, I only see her getting it in rather recent works. I'm not sure when she was first given the title. It doesn't look like she got it in Shakespeare. As far as I can tell, the phrase "The Queen of Air and Darkness" came into existence with the King Arthur book. Mab would predate the phrase by a good 300 years.

She is considered "Queen of the fairy", at times and in various works. I can see how an other would use the title and name for a Fairy.

Justice4243 · 2012-03-30 16:34:17

Mythology presents us with a great ways to keep children in line!

Young children; lazy ones are often the blight of many parents’ existence. For the parents in Japan’s Oga Peninsula, Akita Prefecture in northern Honshu, Japan, there is a solution: the infamous Namahage; where an annual ritual takes place on the 31st of December. Dozens of young single men (traditionally) from various regions in Akita Prefecture, Japan dress like the Namahage demon. Each portrayer adorns an eerie demon mask (various colors depending on region), a straw raincoat and waistband and carries a scary tool made of wood depicting a knife/stick/ various weapon; and a pail. They re-enact the folklore dressed as these demons and march around the village in hopes of scaring prepubescent kids into total parental submission. Going door-to-door, they sweep the village threatening to drag any spoiled disobedient children. As the story goes, a child's lazy spirit (even lazy adults) that is disobedient is dragged into the snow covered mountains away from their parents. Knowing the story very well, upon barging into each home, the young children is immediately frightened by loud roars as they are chased, kids typically scream with agony and fear. This prompts parents to sooth their kids worries of being taken away by the Namahage, letting them know that they’ve been behaving.

The Namahage then encourage the children to keep studying and working hard, as a result the kids make a promise, or a New Year’s resolution to behave. Namahage's carry a notebook about each particular person recording that person's behavior from that year. The Namahage deities are then received by the head of the family in formal dress, who offers sake and food. Upon appeasement by the warm hospitality of the householder (usually they are given sake), they take leave of that house, promising that the family will be blessed with good health, a large catch and a rich crop in the New Year, and then set off to visit the next home.

Krampus is a mythical creature recognized in Alpine countries. According to legend, Krampus accompanies Saint Nicholas during the Christmas season, warning and punishing bad children, in contrast to St. Nicholas, who gives gifts to good children. When the Krampus finds a particularly naughty child, it stuffs the child in its sack and carries the frightened child away to its lair, presumably to devour for its Christmas dinner.

In the Alpine regions, Krampus is represented as a beast-like creature, generally demonic in appearance. The creature has roots in Germanic folklore. Traditionally young men dress up as the Krampus in Austria, southern Bavaria, South Tyrol, Hungary, Slovenia and Croatia during the first week of December, particularly on the evening of 5 December, and roam the streets frightening children with rusty chains and bells. Krampus is featured on holiday greeting cards called Krampuskarten. There are many names for Krampus, as well as many regional variations in portrayal and celebration.

Justice4243 · 2012-04-01 03:13:19

I have an urge to break out my Tarot cards and do a reading...but I have no idea on what...

Justice4243 · 2012-04-01 04:39:53

I ended up doing a reading as to why I was an sort of an "Anxious funk" tonight/this morning. It was a pretty abysmal reading, but suggested the problem was "lack of imagination" or being "obstinate".

This sort of led me to believe that maybe I should consider looking into TV Tropes for entertainment.

Somehow, the first thread I decided to brave was the "Dragon Ball Z Abridged" thread which informed me a new episode of said series was out.

So I watched it and my morning got a TON better. I also saw an obnoxious thread I was still watching in OTC was posted in. I bravely clicked on it to see if there was anything the could get me to post.

Closed the tab, am on to better things now.

Thanks Tarot for magically solving my issues. :P

Unknown · 2012-04-01 13:08:53

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Justice4243 · 2012-04-01 18:49:09

One must wonder if Nietzsche had participated in many philosophical debates.

Justice4243 · 2012-04-11 18:38:20

Article dump. Not sure why Genzoman's art is plastered all over this whole thing, but I approve.

Potential interesting look at Biblical mentions of the Canaanites and such...

The Rephaim

The Rephaim were descendants of the Nephilim, according to Numbers. Abraham and Lot would have encountered these people during their time in Canaan. The Rephaim also fell victim to the same King Chederlaomer responsible for conquering Sodom and Gomorrah.

Though the Bible never directly mentions these people in the same breath as the Nephilim, they are connected to the Anakim, whom are clearly connected to the Nephilim.

Steve Quayle has conducted much research on the topic, and claims the two were cousins, or, shared some sort of blood relation. By extension, thus, the Rephaim were also distant descendants of the Nephilim.

Genesis 14:5

"And in the fourteenth year Chedorlaomer and the kings that were with him, came and defeated the Rephaim in Ashteroth-karnaim and the Zuzim in Ham and the Emim in Shaveh-kiriathaim..."

Interestingly enough, these people are depicted as being defeated by the coalition responsible for the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah . As they were distantly removed from the 1st generation Nephilim, their strength was not on par with their ancestors. This defeat, however, does not seem to imply a complete annihilation. A map of Chederlaomer's conquest of Canaan. The word "defeated", has many meanings throughout the Old Testament, but not one refers to a total annihilation. This is important to keep in mind when considering the passage above from Deuteronomy. This scripture states it was the Ammonites, the sons of Lot, who took control of the land.

Chedorlaomer and his army marched from Mesopotamia, and nowhere does Scripture relate they settled in the land.

In fact, they continued their march up the Eastern banks of the Jordan after their victory in the Vale of Siddim. Abraham caught up to them, and slaughtered them as far as Dan, scattering them to only God knows where.

It was after this defeat by Chedorlaomer when Lot and his sons took possession of Ammon.

The destruction in Genesis, and the destruction in Deuteronomy, are assumed by many scholars to be the same. However, the wording of Scripture may indicate two separate defeats of the these people.

Justice4243 · 2012-04-11 18:40:05

Regardless, after Chederlaomer's defeat they were severely crippled, and lost the overpowering influence they once possessed.

This passage does attest to the fact that the descendants of the Nephilim; the Anakim, Rephaim, Zamzummin, and Emim, were in existence dating back to the time of Abraham. They lived throughout the land of Canaan, and were still regarded by God as exceedingly wicked.

In fact, many scholars claim Canaan was a land of giants leading up to, and sometime after, Abraham's arrival. Perhaps this was God's reason for calling Abraham to the land of Canaan.

When one considers the worldwide wickedness perpetrated by the Genesis Nephilim, it is not hard to fathom a similar control exerted over the "human" inhabitants of Canaan. A map of Moab and Ammon. Rather on a worldwide scale, perhaps Satan sought to slip under God's radar by limiting his evil influence to the land of Canaan.

The wickedness soon spread to the entire region, thus God's necessity in destroying all Canaanites, lest some more Nephilim slip through the cracks.

This, of course, raises the question as to how they escaped God's wrath initially. Refer to Schembrie's theory as one possible explanation.

Justice4243 · 2012-04-11 18:41:14

A passage from the second chapter of Deuteronomy seems to confuse the Rephaim's identity. With close examination, however, it may shed some light on their identity.

Deuteronomy 2:10-11

"The Emim lived there formerly, a people as great, numerous, and tall as the Anakim. Like the Anakim, they are regarded as Rephaim, but the Moabites call them Emim."

At first glance it would seem these beings, along with the Anakim and Emim, were different appellations for the same group of people. They were all "regarded" as Rephaim.

Though these groups were indeed very closely related, they were different factions of descendants from the Nephilim. This verse, then, seems to muddy the already muddied waters.

One must look at the Hebrew word translated "regarded". The Hebrew word is "Chashab". According to Spiro Zodhiates, this word is used 121 times in the Old Testament.

Chashab literally means to count, to count for, to impute, to esteem, to reckon. The fundamental idea of Chashab is that of "using the mind in the activity of thinking".

With this interpretation, then, these three groups were not meant to be figured as the same group of people. Rather, the Israelites thought of these people along the same lines as they did the Anakim and the Emim.

Justice4243 · 2012-04-11 18:42:02

They were a mighty people of great size. The Emim are said to have been a tribe of the Rephaim. By the time of the conquest, these people had nearly vanished from Canaan. The Rephaim's demise can be gleamed from Deuteronomy 3:11.

"For only Og king of Bashon was left of the remnant of the Rephaim. Behold, his bedstead was an iron bedstead; it is in Rabbah of the sons of Ammon. Its length was nine cubits and its width four cubits by ordinary cubit."

Og, king of Bashon, was said to have been the last of the Rephaim. Og is an extremely interesting person in the Old Testament.

Og and Sihon, king of Gilead, were feared warriors and monarchs prior to the Israelite's entrance into Canaan. Scripture describes Og as a giant. His bed was over 14 feet long, and over 6 feet wide! Not only that, it was made of iron. Iron was no doubt needed to support such a large body, which most certainly weighed hundreds of pounds. Nephilim giants such as Og, according to some scholars, may have been numerous at this time in the history of Palestine.

The kingdom of Og the Rephaim.

Though Sihon is not said to have been a giant in Scripture, he was most certainly associated with the Rephaim. Rabbinnic literature states Og and Sihon were brothers.Sihon was the mightiest of the two, and the Midrash states he was the equivalent of Og in bravery and stature. These ancient rabbis also listed Og and Sihon as grandsons of Shamhazai. Shamhazai was believed to have been one of the original fallen angles responsible for the Nephilim in Genesis.

These ancient documents also associate Sihon as the king of Arad, described as "the Canaanite" in Numbers 21:1.

Sihon was called "the Canaanite" because he was the overlord of all the land. Many kingdoms throughout Canaan paid him tribute. His capital lay in Trans-jordan, yet, he possessed many territories and vassals in Canaan. This is astounding evidence that the Nephilim were still dominant, and exerting a mighty influence upon the land of Canaan.

Sihon was the overlord over all the land of Canaan. Og and Sihon were eventually defeated by the Israelites, yet, the Nephilim influence remained in the land. Whether this tribe, and other similar tribes, were descendants of the Nephilim are not is open for interpretation. The return of the Nephilim to Canaan seem to have taken place centuries before the conquest!

However, one cannot deny the wickedness associated with these people. Their names indicate such. Emim translates as "the fearful ones". Anakim translates into "the long-necked ones". The Rephaim translates as "the dead ones".The Zamzummim translates as "buzzers".

According to the local inhabitants of Canaan, these people possessed a strange language, which sounded more like buzzing than actual speaking. Yet, another mysterious aspect of these descendants of the Nephilim.

Though the exact nature of the Genesis 6 passage is much debated today, it was not always so. In fact, up until the 4th or 5th centuries AD, the ancients believed these beings were actual fallen angels.

Mr. Darcy · 2012-04-11 18:52:53

Ever since I was a little kid, I've pictured "Og, king of Bashin'" as a caveman.

Justice4243 · 2012-04-11 18:54:09

Considering his name is just ALMOST "Og, king of Bashing", I could see that.

Justice4243 · 2012-05-06 03:04:03

Does your Church worship Baal?

Wut?

Hey! Genzoman Baal.

At least he's got good taste in art depicting kick ass looking demons. Not sure how Genzoman would feel about all this, though.

One Luciferian author writes that "... the lingam [male phallus] was an upright pillar" [W. Wynn Wescott, Numbers: Their Occult Power and Mystic Virtues, Theosophical Publishing Society, 1902, p. 33]

The Egyptians created the obelisk, believing that the spirit of the Sun god, Ra, dwelt in there. [H.L. Hayward, Symbolic Masonry: An Interpretation of the Three Degrees, Washington, D.C., Masonic Service Association of the United States, 1923, p. 207; 'Two Pillars' Short Talk Bulletin, Sept., 1935, Vol. 13, No 9; Charles Clyde Hunt, Some Thoughts On Masonic Symbolism, Macoy Publishing and Masonic Supply Company, 1930, p. 101]
A Masonic author both admit that these pillars of the obelisk were used to represent sex [Hayward,Symbolic Masonry: An Interpretation of the Three Degrees, Washington, D.C., Masonic Service Association of the United States, 1923, p. 206-7 and Rollin C. Blackmer, The Lodge and the Craft: A Practical Explanation of the Work of Freemasonry, St. Louis, The Standard Masonic Publishing Co., 1923, p. 94]

'Kay Luciferian, credible sounding myth, sources, I'm with you so far.

Justice4243 · 2012-05-06 03:05:39

phallic worship
Pronounced As: falik , worship of the reproductive powers of nature as symbolized by the male generative organ. Phallic symbols have been found by
archaeological expeditions all over the world, and they are usually interpreted as an expression of the human desire for regeneration. Phallic worship in ancient Greece centered around Priapus (the son of Aphrodite) and the Orphic and Dionysiac cults. In Rome, the most important form of phallic worship was that of the cult of Cybele and Attis; prominent during the empire, this cult was notorious for its festive excesses and its yearly "Day of Blood, during which the frenzied participants wounded themselves with knives; self-inflicted castration, a prerequisite for admittance into the priest caste of this phallic cult, took place during the festival. In India, the deity Shiva was often represented by and worshipped as a phallic symbol called the lingam. Phallic worship has also been practiced among the Egyptians in the worship of Osiris; among the Japanese, who incorporated it into Shinto; and among the Native Americans, such as the Mandan, who had a phallic buffalo dance. -See C. G. Berger, archaeological expeditions all over the word, and they are usually interpreted as an expression of the human desire for regeneration. Phallic worship in ancient Greece centered around Priapus (the son of Aphrodite) and the Orphic and Dionysiac cults. In Rome, the most important form of phallic worship was that of the cult of Cybele and Attis; prominent during the empire, this cult was notorious for its festive excesses and its yearly "Day of Blood, during which the frenzied participants wounded themselves with knives; self-inflicted castration, a prerequisite for admittance into the priest caste of this phallic cult, took place during the festival. In India, the deity Shiva was often represented by and worshipped as a phallic symbol called the lingam. Phallic worship has also been practiced among the Egyptians in the worship of Osiris; among the Japanese, who incorporated it into Shinto; and among the Native Americans, such as the Mandan, who had a phallic buffalo dance. -See C. G. Berger, Our Phallic Heritage (1966); T. Vanggaard, Phallos (1972). [source] -http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/36550.html

Justice4243 · 2012-05-06 03:05:54

fertility rites
magico-religious ceremonies to insure an abundance of food and the birth of children. The rites, expressed through dances, prayers, incantations, and sacred dramas, seek to control the otherwise unpredictable forces of nature. In primitive agricultural societies natural phenomena, such as rainfall, the fecundity of the earth, and the regeneration of nature were frequently personified. One of the most important pagan myths was the search of the earth goddess for her lost (or dead) child or lover (e.g., Isis and Osiris, Ishtar and Tammuz, Demeter and Persephone). This myth, symbolizing the birth, death, and reappearance of vegetation, when acted out in a sacred drama, was the fertility rite par excellence. Other rites concerned with productivity include acts of sympathetic magic, such as kindling of fires (symbolizing the sun) and scattering the reproductive organs of animals on the fields, displays of phallic symbols, and ritual prostitution. In India it was once believed that a fertile marriage would result if virgins were first deflowered by means of the lingam, a stone phallus symbolizing the god Shiva. Sacrifices of both humans and animals were believed to release the powers embodied within them and so make the fields or forests productive where the sacrifices had taken place. Many ancient fertility rites have persisted in modified forms into modern times. The Maypole dance derives from spring rituals glorifying the phallus.http://www.encyclopedia.com/articles/16547.html
Even the very Scriptures of the Almighty speaks out against the phallic symbol of Babylon. "...Jehu said to the guard and to the captains, Go in, and slay them; let none come forth. And they smote them with the edge of the sword; and the guard and the captains cast them out, and went to the city of the house of Baal. And they brought forth the images out of the house of Baal, and burned them." -2 Kings 10:25-26 The Amplified Bible translates it... … King Jehu said to the guards and to the officers, 'Go in and slay them; let none escape'. And they smote them with the sword; and the guards before the king threw their bodies out, and went into the inner dwelling of the house of Baal. They brought out the obelisks [pillars] of the house of Baal and burned them." [2 Kings 10:26, Amplified Bible]

Informative information, accurate details about the purpose behind mythology, Bible quotes.

All good, but none of this really explains...

Justice4243 · 2012-05-06 03:07:08

Please understand, that the steeple upon the roof of your church is an open declaration that the ROMAN BEAST has infiltrated your church, and your church leaders proclaim their acceptance of this filtration by placing the vulgar phallic symbol upon YOUR church roof! The steeple/obelisk is ONLY a symbol of Baal worship! And to allow this symbol to stand erected upon your church roof shouts loudly to all those listening that you are tolerating a Satanic symbol of the sex act to be glorified by your church family. Fact is, Satanists, Roman Catholicism, and Invisible Masons openly depict the obelisk as the erect male organ.
Many students of prophecy understand the USA to be the "lamb horned beast" of Revelation. And they also understand the Vatican to be "the beast" of Revelation as well. Now do you understand why they BOTH sport the Phallic symbol of Baal worship with such graphic confidence?

...WHAT?!

obelisk
Pronounced As: oblisk , slender four-sided tapering monument, usually hewn of a single great piece of stone, terminating in a pointed or pyramidal top. Among the ancient Egyptians these monoliths were commonly of red granite from Syene and werededicated to the sun god. They were placed in pairs before the temples, one on either side of the portal. The greatest number erected in any one place was in Heliopolis, but eventually almost every temple entrance was flanked by a pair of them. Down each of the four faces, in most cases, ran a line of deeply incised hieroglyphs and representations, setting forth the names and titles of the Pharaoh. The cap, or pyramidion, was sometimes sheathed with copper or other metal. Obelisks of colossal size were first raised in the XII dynasty. Of those still standing in Egypt, one remains at Heliopolis and two at Al Karnak, one from the time of Thutmose I and one of Queen Hatshepsut which is estimated to be 97.5 ft (29.7 m) high. Many of the historic shafts have been carried from Egypt, notably one of the reign of Ramses II from Luxor, now in the Place de la Concorde, Paris, and Cleopatra's Needles in London and New York. Others are in Rome and Florence. In the United States two familiar structures of obelisk form (though not monoliths) are the Washington and the Bunker Hill monuments.

Take a look at the universities that teach your children all they need to know on how to make it in this pagan world. See for yourselves how they ALL have the phallic symbols of Babylon boldly displayed!

Wow...I'm not sure who this is attacking...the part about the ROMAN BEAST make me think Catholics, but steeples are more all over the place. You can call out that you're trying to call out Catholics, but there's a lot of collateral damage here...

Also...Roam FELL over a century before Steeples where a thing.

Justice4243 · 2012-05-06 03:07:27

From Wikipedia:

Clock towers were not a part of Christian churches until about AD 600, when they were adapted from military watchtowers. At first they were fairly modest and entirely separate structures from churches. Over time, they were incorporated into the church building and capped with ever-more-elaborate roofs until the steeple resulted. St. Martin's church steeple, in Arbon, Switzerland, is a good example of such a early church tower. Once the entry tower to the Roman fort "Arbor Felix", it today stands as a separate tower, adapted in style over many centuries, but where in 612 AD, it very likely greeted the Irish missionary Gallus as he joined the already established christian community there.
Towers are a common element of religious architecture worldwide and are generally viewed as attempts to reach skyward toward heavens and the divine.^[1] Some wooden steeples like the one in Kingston, New York pictured below are built with large wooden structural members arranged like tent poles and braced diagonally inside both with wood and steel. The steeple is then clad with wooden boards and finished with slate tiles nailed to the boards using copper over gaps on corners where the slate would not cover.

I guess military towers are phallic symbols too? I guess there's no other explanation really. It's not like there's any PRACTICAL reason people would want to be high up so they could see long distances in a combat scenario...

Mr. Darcy · 2012-05-06 12:06:57

INVISIBLE MASONS!

Justice4243 · 2012-05-06 16:49:07

Heh, I missed that part:

"Fact is, Satanists, Roman Catholicism, and Invisible Masons openly depict the obelisk as the erect male organ."

I'm assuming he's talking about some sort Illuminati.

This is starting look much less like religious crack-pot theory and more like regular crackpot theory with a religious twist.

Justice4243 · 2012-05-12 14:27:48

So, on the subject of women and Church. I found this about the Catholics: http://catholicism.about.com/od/beliefsteachings/f/Women_Priests.htm

Huh...I'm surprised they didn't use the pretty clear "St. Paul says "no"" verse. What's left is a sort of...not very good argument.

I mean, that's sort of just shooting "THAT'S JUST THE WAY IT'S DONE!" at someone...

"In other words, it's not simply that the Catholic Church does not allow women to be ordained. If a validly ordained bishop were to perform the rite of the Sacrament of Holy Orders exactly, but the person supposedly being ordained were a woman rather than a man, the woman would no more be a priest at the end of the rite than she was before it began. The bishop's action in attempting the ordination of a woman would be both illicit (against the laws and regulations of the Church) and invalid (ineffective, and hence null and void).
The movement for women's ordination in the Catholic Church, therefore, will never get anywhere. Other Christian denominations, to justify ordaining women, have had to change their understanding of the nature of the priesthood from one which conveys an indelible spiritual character on the man who is ordained to one in which the priesthood is treated as a mere function. But to abandon the 2,000-year-old understanding of the nature of the priesthood would be a doctrinal change. The Catholic Church could not do so and remain the Catholic Church.

...Really?

Allowing women to become priests would destroy the very fabric of the Catholic Church? You ACTULLY believe that?

And also the part "If a validly ordained bishop were to perform the rite of the Sacrament of Holy Orders exactly..(but on a woman)..the woman would no more be a priest at the end of the rite than she was before it began". Well ignoring the fact that your argument was basically "If a the current ritual that would make someone a priest was done on a women, it would fizzle like a spell cast on an invalid target in Magic the Gathering." If this DID occurred, doesn't that suggest that the Church has decided it can continue functioning with women Priests?

I'll grant that dudes "have been the way it's done for a long time", but having an argument just based on "Appeal to tradition" is not exactly a great way to make a point.

Tachyon · 2012-05-12 14:35:17

There's also the "women are just different" argument:

Christ, of course, was a man; but some who argue for the ordination of women insist that His sex is irrelevant, that a woman can act in the person of Christ as well as a man can. This is a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching on the differences between men and women, which the Church insists are irreducible; men and women, by their natures, are suited to different, yet complementary, roles and functions.

(I'm not sure whether the fact that they're actually open about maintaining a consciously sexist system makes it worse.)

Justice4243 · 2012-05-12 14:35:35

For the sake of not taking over the LGBT thread:

"Most congregations wouldn't allow a female prostitute to become the leader of a church despite one saving the Hebrew nation in the OT and another factoring in the NT. Also there was the other occasion in the OT where a single woman saved the entire Hebrew race, again. The Bible isn't really misogynistic at all. Patriarchal, yes. "

Ah yes, Esther. She also saved them while doing a couple things that could have got her killed off by her Hubby, Mr. Antagonist of 300 himself, Xerxes.

It's a pretty valid point. Women in the Bible have done some courageous things. And yet there are certain positions that just can't have.

It strikes me as odd that even if Catholics have their reasons for keeping male priests, they wouldn't come up with something like a female equivalent given that the Mother Mary is sort of important to them...just a little bit.

"(I'm not sure whether the fact that they're actually open about maintaining a consciously sexist system makes it worse.)"

Yeah...that part made me feel something close to actual nausea.

I guess this guy should be commended for not just using St. Paul's verse, but if this is all the Church has to go on, I can see why other Churches would be fine with women leading sermons and such.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-05-12 14:49:10

^

Would you accept a Gay Priest in your church?

Justice4243 · 2012-05-12 14:55:26

I don't really have a "church" per se, but I have no qualms about Homosexuals being in priest positions.

I'm kinda convinced the Bible doesn't either, at this point...

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