"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
I wonder why the Egyptian gods are more primal, with their animal appearances, than the contemporary Sumerian gods.
How each culture viewed nature was probably important: For the Egyptians, the regular flooding of the Nile was vital to agriculture; between the Tigris and Euphrates, flooding was far less regular and more destructive. One viewed the power of nature as something to be revered, the other something to be feared. There's also the nature of the Sumerian bureaucracy, which was even more complex and intrenched than the Egyptian one, at least early on. To view the celestial hierarchy as human would seem natural to a Sumerian. By contrast, a very early Egyptian—before Menes, perhaps, in the ages of the warring kingdoms—would be far more likely to see the gods as something more abstract, of the earth yet beyond it, as living rivers or great beasts. Human power was too impermanent. As this changed, so did the appearance of the gods: Horus went from a hawk to a hawk-headed man and so forth.
This is all speculation, of course. But it fits pretty well.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
Sredni: Interesting thoughts.
Lazuli: We know of Narmer's tomb, and a mace head and makeup palette associated with him are the first artifacts showing both the white and red crowns, worn in a military context. However, all the textual sources (which he have for as early as Dynasty 5, on the Palermo Stone) feature Menes. This may just mean that the two were the same man's birth name (formally "son of Ra" in later titulary) and Horus name.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
Furthermore, these early royal names are kind of hilarious. The hieroglyphs for nar-mer are literally "catfish" and "chisel", interpreted as "violent catfish." mene is a game board, so we have his majesty "board game." Even earlier, the best-attested king of Upper Egypt is ka, "arms", who may have succeeded "scorpion".
Edit: I find it charming, because what we seem to be seeing here is some of the earliest use of pictograms to express abstracts. Artifacts with "King Arms" written on them have been found from Palestine in the north almost to the rival capital of Nekhen ("Hawk City", Hierakonpolis) in the south, suggesting it means "armed force." "Catfish Chisel" is probably best read as "Catfish the empire carver", while "Board-game" is suggestive of "strategist."
Read this way, it's suggestive that Scorpion's only known image is a man in the white crown of Upper Egypt hoeing, albeit on a mace head. Perhaps only his successors were expansionists.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
True! A man named "scorpion" on a mace head could totally mean "venomous." Conversely, "arms" could have been "handicrafts", a merchant king whose people's vessels were spread by trade. Nar-mer could be the more benevolent "catfish the builder", with mene another name he took to symbolize his unification wars.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
So, given the thread name, let's get back to the gods.
The Turin papyrus (from the reign of Ramesses the Great) lists the first rulers like so:
Ptah (who "conceives the world by the thought of his heart and gives life through the power of his Word.") Atum-Ra (Sun) His son Shu, husband of his daughter Tefnut (humanoid god of air and lioness goddess of water vapor) Their son Geb, husband of their daughter Nut (the earth and the sky dome, who were constantly in the coital embrace and had to be pushed apart by Shu/air so beings could live on the earth) Their son Osiris, obviously the first to rule Egypt as such. He married his sister Isis. Jealous brother Seth (the eldest male god depicted as an animal, other than Ra when he's a falcon or falcon-headed) buried him alive in the Nile before he could produce an heir, but Isis found him, and after a fetch quest because Seth showed up and chopped him into 14 pieces, conceived a son. Horus then grew up to defeat Uncle Seth and take the crown. His successor was Thoth, either his own son by Hathor the cow goddess, or Ra's by her. His successor was Maat (truth/order/law/justice personified as a woman), daughter of Ra. Some accounts make her Thoth's wife. Then Horus was king again for some reason.
He was followed, logically enough, by Shemsu Hor, "followers of Horus." This section also lists "Venerables of the North" and "Kings from Thinis" (i.e. the ones who wore the white crown and were buried at Abydos).
This almost looked like it had something to a point to it in the first few paragraphs, then quickly ran itself into the ground.
My word, do these people actually research any of this stuff? It's like there's a bunch of dudes just handing out religious pamphlets, and that's where all these people's religious knowledge comes from.
So, given the thread name, let's get back to the gods.
You're doing fine...at least, I was intrigued.
Osiris, obviously the first to rule Egypt as such. He married his sister Isis.
Jealous brother Seth (the eldest male god depicted as an animal, other than Ra when he's a falcon or falcon-headed) buried him alive in the Nile before he could produce an heir, but Isis found him, and after a fetch quest because Seth showed up and chopped him into 14 pieces, conceived a son.
Horus then grew up to defeat Uncle Seth and take the crown.
You left out the best part!
Isis and her sister Nephthys went looking for these pieces, but could only find thirteen of the fourteen. Fish had swallowed the last piece, his phallus, so Isis made him a new one with magic, putting his body back together after which they conceived Horus.
That's right, Isis had to give her hubby/brother a magic penis because a fish ate his last one. After which, they tested it out and Isis gave birth to Hawk-Man.
So, given the thread name, let's get back to the gods.
The Turin papyrus (from the reign of Ramesses the Great) lists the first rulers like so:
Ptah (who "conceives the world by the thought of his heart and gives life through the power of his Word.") Atum-Ra (Sun) His son Shu, husband of his daughter Tefnut (humanoid god of air and lioness goddess of water vapor) Their son Geb, husband of their daughter Nut (the earth and the sky dome, who were constantly in the coital embrace and had to be pushed apart by Shu/air so beings could live on the earth) Their son Osiris, obviously the first to rule Egypt as such. He married his sister Isis. Jealous brother Seth (the eldest male god depicted as an animal, other than Ra when he's a falcon or falcon-headed) buried him alive in the Nile before he could produce an heir, but Isis found him, and after a fetch quest because Seth showed up and chopped him into 14 pieces, conceived a son. Horus then grew up to defeat Uncle Seth and take the crown. His successor was Thoth, either his own son by Hathor the cow goddess, or Ra's by her. His successor was Maat (truth/order/law/justice personified as a woman), daughter of Ra. Some accounts make her Thoth's wife. Then Horus was king again for some reason.
He was followed, logically enough, by Shemsu Hor, "followers of Horus." This section also lists "Venerables of the North" and "Kings from Thinis" (i.e. the ones who wore the white crown and were buried at Abydos).
I showed my grandmother this post some time ago* (she is a neopagan/Wiccan thing and draws from a number of old religions) and she claims "Atum-Ra" should be "Atem-Re".
I don't know how true that is but, y'know, just thought you should know.
I'm also not sure why I didn't post that at the time, oh well
edit: I'm a durr
*technically she just sort of looked over my shoulder, but whatever.
Remember back in the 50s when they'd record like Elvis singing YOU AIN'T NOTHIN BUT A HOUND DOG and then they'd turn the record over and reverse it and it was all NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP and people were all like, "That is actually the voice of Satan coming from that song."
If I recall correctly, Egyptian hieroglyphics doesn't give much information in the way of vowels, so that may be true. I don't know enough about the subject to say for sure.
For what it's worth, I do know there's a Carmen Sandiego game that uses "Amun-Re."
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
That's right, Isis had to give her hubby/brother a magic penis because a fish ate his last one. After which, they tested it out and Isis gave birth to Hawk-Man.
So do people in Greece still follow the Greek Mythological Stories or did they default to a different religion? How did they follow the Mythos as if it was real, or was it just stories they told each other?
Doctor Who reference in Pokemon B2W2? Headcanon accepted.
With Lilith, no. Her one scant mention at Isaiah 34:14 has been one of the major casualties of the procession from the Septuagint to the KJV. Even so, she pretty much falls under the Hebraic "Extended Universe" so most Christians don't bother with that or any of the other side-stories involving Adam and Eve and Noah (of which are covered very well in Louis Ginzberg's book Legends of the Bible.)
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
My favorite legends of the Bible are those dealing with King Solomon's super powers.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Speaking of Biblical canon that's not canon depending on who you ask, I'm reading Judith.
Man, if there is one cat in the Bible you did not want to fuck with, it was Nebakanezer.
Nebakanezer: "Ah, Holofernes, how goes recruitment for the war on Arphaxad? I assume each nation sent their finest soldiers to aid us in our cause?"
Holofernes: "Actually, they all told you to fuck off."
Nebakanezer: "ALL of them? Even Anti-Lebanon?"
Holofernes: "Anti-Lebanon sent this along..."
Nebakanezer:“Wow…they actually drew that…Well, I guess you know what this means.”
Holofernes:“Cancel the war on Arphaxad?”
Nebakanezer:“That sounded suspiciously not like “declare war on everyone in the world.”
Holofernes:“Sorry sire, I have no idea what I was thinking, I’ll get on the brutal campaign of “Us vs Everyone else” right away.
Nebakanezer:“You do that”
Arphaxad:“Dum de dum dum…Oh Look! It’s the armies of Nebakanezer, you know he really should have gotten the support of other countries before deciding…” *SPEARED THROUGH THE TORSO* “Dang” *LIKE HALF A DOZEN TIMES* “Double Dang” *dead*.
Nebakanezer:“Well that was fun, time to celebrate…”
Holofernes:“Sire, you have been celebrating.”
Nebakanezer:“Oh, well time flies when you’re celebrating the death of your enemies.”
Holofernes:“You’ve been drinking for about a third of a year straight.”
Nebakanezer:“Oh my! Well, you best get started on the next war! Here, kill everyone on this list.”
Holofernes:“This is an atlas.”
Nebakanezer:“Well, you better get started, then!”
Holofernes:“Of course, sire…”
Cities of Put and Lud:“THIS DOESN’T SEEM POSSIBLE!”*HISTORICALLY INACCURATE BEATDOWN!*
Cilicia:“WHY ARE ALL OUR ORGANS SO STABABLE?!”
Midianites:“WHY ARE ALL OUR TENTS SO FLAMMABLE AND ALL OUR SHEEPFOLDS PLUNDERABLE?!”
Damascus:“Oh well, there goes all our wheat, I wonder how we’re going to feed our livestock…oh, well their goes that, too. guess we’ll just go live in our…oh, they despoiled our cities, well…Guess it’s off to the plains…GREAT! Devastated. Well at least we still have all our children…OH, MOTHER FUCKERS!”
Entire Coastland:“Don’t RAZE me, bro! Don’t Raze me! Here just…just take all our stuff! We’ll even celebrate you showing up! We’re cool, dude.”
Holofernes:“Wow! Treated like a conquering hero! Nice work guys! You guys really deserve to be left alone, but imma gonna raze you anyway.
So I've been reading Celsus. It's interesting which critiques of Christianity he makes have remained popular and which have gone out of style. At the very least, I can't see Richard Dawkins arguing that Jesus's miracles weren't miracles, because he used sorcery.
Actually, it's still part of Mandaean doctrine that Jesus was actually a malicious sorcerer who stole his ideas from John the Baptist (God's true messenger) in order to frame himself as the Messiah. So it still flies with... some people, I guess? It certainly did back then.
In fact, as far as I can recall, a number of European tribes were converted to Christianity under the belief that Christ was simply a stronger god than the ones they already worshipped because of his "great acts of magic."
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
My Dictionary of Jewish Lore and Legend certainly has some...erm...unflattering things to say about Jesus...
But I've yet to have anyone actually suggest Mary was an adulterer who slept with a roman solider, and the child from that union went on to steal magical secrets from Egypt only to be beat in an "wizard off" by some rabbis and hung from a cabbage stalk because he used magic to make all the other trees reject his body.
Justice42 said:Mary was an adulterer who slept with a roman solider, and the child from that union went on to steal magical secrets from Egypt only to be beat in an "wizard off" by some rabbis and hung from a cabbage stalk because he used magic to make all the other trees reject his body.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Apparently Jesus seduces women in some of these, so "Punk Rock Jesus" might be apt.
In the version I linked, Jesus and Judas Iscariot have a magical, flying, ineffable-name-of-God duel which only ends when Judas is forced to "defile" both of them so they both loose use of the name:
Then the Sages selected a man named Judah Iskarioto and brought him to the Sanctuary where he learned the letters of the Ineffable Name as Yeshu had done.
When Yeshu was summoned before the queen, this time there were present also the Sages and Judah Iskarioto. Yeshu said: "It is spoken of me, 'I will ascend into heaven.'" He lifted his arms like the wings of an eagle and he flew between heaven and earth, to the amazement of everyone.
The elders asked Iskarioto to do likewise. He did, and flew toward heaven. Iskarioto attempted to force Yeshu down to earth but neither one of the two could prevail against the other for both had the use of the Ineffable Name. However, Iskarioto defiled Yeshu, so that they both lost their power and fell down to the earth, and in their condition of defilement the letters of the Ineffable Name escaped from them. Because of this deed of Judah they weep on the eve of the birth of Yeshu.
When Yeshu was summoned before the queen, this time there were present also the Sages and Judah Iskarioto. Yeshu said: "It is spoken of me, 'I will ascend into heaven.'" He lifted his arms like the wings of an eagle and he flew between heaven and earth, to the amazement of everyone.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Iskarioto is the dude with the black hair.
No...really...
Judas(ジューダスJūdasu?) is a manga by Suu Minazuki(水無月すうMinazuki Sū?). There are a total of five volumes in this series. The first was published in English by Tokyopop on October 10, 2006. The second volume of this series was released by Tokyopop on February 13, 2007. Judas is cursed for his sins to kill six hundred and sixty six (666) people to regain his humanity. However, he is forbidden human contact and has no corporeal body. In order to kill, he uses his slave, Eve, to kill for him. Every time Eve's blood is spilled, Judas comes out and forces Eve to "say his prayers", in other words, kill. However, despite being forced to commit such heinous acts, Eve is also forced to dress like a girl. Judas had mistaken him for girl when they had first met, and he has forced Eve to dress like a girl. Sometime along the course of their strange relationship, they meet a professor, who joins them.
Uhhhh...I think there's a little too much fetish material here.
"It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens
Well MY Jew doesn't believe Christ was an evil flying sorcerer...
Comments
... well that didn't help at all, lady.
Lazuli: We know of Narmer's tomb, and a mace head and makeup palette associated with him are the first artifacts showing both the white and red crowns, worn in a military context. However, all the textual sources (which he have for as early as Dynasty 5, on the Palermo Stone) feature Menes. This may just mean that the two were the same man's birth name (formally "son of Ra" in later titulary) and Horus name.
Edit: I find it charming, because what we seem to be seeing here is some of
the earliest use of pictograms to express abstracts. Artifacts with
"King Arms" written on them have been found from Palestine in the north
almost to the rival capital of Nekhen ("Hawk City", Hierakonpolis) in
the south, suggesting it means "armed force." "Catfish Chisel" is
probably best read as "Catfish the empire carver", while "Board-game" is suggestive of "strategist."
Read this way, it's suggestive that Scorpion's only known image is a man
in the white crown of Upper Egypt hoeing, albeit on a mace head.
Perhaps only his successors were expansionists.
King Scorpion could also be perhaps interpreted to be venomous (figuratively).
Perhaps he was not very pleasant.
Indeed. Old Egyptian is a strange language.
Also one of the sounds is represented in contemporary notation by the number 3, which I find amusing.
The Turin papyrus (from the reign of Ramesses the Great) lists the first rulers like so:
Ptah (who "conceives the world by the thought of his heart and gives life through the power of his Word.")
Atum-Ra (Sun)
His son Shu, husband of his daughter Tefnut (humanoid god of air and lioness goddess of water vapor)
Their son Geb, husband of their daughter Nut (the earth and the sky dome, who were constantly in the coital embrace and had to be pushed apart by Shu/air so beings could live on the earth)
Their son Osiris, obviously the first to rule Egypt as such. He married his sister Isis.
Jealous brother Seth (the eldest male god depicted as an animal, other than Ra when he's a falcon or falcon-headed) buried him alive in the Nile before he could produce an heir, but Isis found him, and after a fetch quest because Seth showed up and chopped him into 14 pieces, conceived a son.
Horus then grew up to defeat Uncle Seth and take the crown.
His successor was Thoth, either his own son by Hathor the cow goddess, or Ra's by her.
His successor was Maat (truth/order/law/justice personified as a woman), daughter of Ra. Some accounts make her Thoth's wife.
Then Horus was king again for some reason.
He was followed, logically enough, by Shemsu Hor, "followers of Horus." This section also lists "Venerables of the North" and "Kings from Thinis" (i.e. the ones who wore the white crown and were buried at Abydos).
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
I showed my grandmother this post some time ago* (she is a neopagan/Wiccan thing and draws from a number of old religions) and she claims "Atum-Ra" should be "Atem-Re".
I don't know how true that is but, y'know, just thought you should know.
I'm also not sure why I didn't post that at the time, oh well
edit: I'm a durr
*technically she just sort of looked over my shoulder, but whatever.
Kierkegaard had sweet hair.
☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
⚢
☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
⚢
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Nebakanezer: "Ah, Holofernes, how goes recruitment for the war on Arphaxad? I assume
each nation sent their finest soldiers to aid us in our cause?"
Holofernes: "Actually, they all told you to fuck off."
Nebakanezer: "ALL of them? Even Anti-Lebanon?"
Holofernes: "Anti-Lebanon sent this along..."
Nebakanezer:“Wow…they actually drew that…Well, I guess you know what this means.”
Holofernes:“Cancel the war on Arphaxad?”
Nebakanezer:“That sounded suspiciously not like “declare war on everyone in the world.”
Holofernes:“Sorry sire, I have no idea what I was thinking, I’ll get on the brutal campaign of “Us vs Everyone else” right away.
Nebakanezer:“You do that”
Arphaxad:“Dum de dum dum…Oh Look! It’s the armies of Nebakanezer, you know he really should have gotten the support of other countries before deciding…” *SPEARED THROUGH THE TORSO* “Dang” *LIKE HALF A DOZEN TIMES* “Double Dang” *dead*.
Nebakanezer:“Well that was fun, time to celebrate…”
Holofernes:“Sire, you have been celebrating.”
Nebakanezer:“Oh, well time flies when you’re celebrating the death of your enemies.”
Holofernes:“You’ve been drinking for about a third of a year straight.”
Nebakanezer:“Oh my! Well, you best get started on the next war! Here, kill everyone on this list.”
Holofernes:“This is an atlas.”
Nebakanezer:“Well, you better get started, then!”
Holofernes:“Of course, sire…”
Cities of Put and Lud:“THIS DOESN’T SEEM POSSIBLE!”*HISTORICALLY INACCURATE BEATDOWN!*
Cilicia:“WHY ARE ALL OUR ORGANS SO STABABLE?!”
Midianites:“WHY ARE ALL OUR TENTS SO FLAMMABLE AND ALL OUR SHEEPFOLDS PLUNDERABLE?!”
Damascus:“Oh well, there goes all our wheat, I wonder how we’re going to feed our livestock…oh, well their goes that, too. guess we’ll just go live in our…oh, they despoiled our cities, well…Guess it’s off to the plains…GREAT! Devastated. Well at least we still have all our children…OH, MOTHER FUCKERS!”
Entire Coastland:“Don’t RAZE me, bro! Don’t Raze me! Here just…just take all our stuff! We’ll even celebrate you showing up! We’re cool, dude.”
Holofernes:“Wow! Treated like a conquering hero! Nice work guys! You guys really deserve to be left alone, but imma gonna raze you anyway.
Entire Coastland:“OW! OW! OW! OW!”
And that's just the first three chapters.
Also the source of my new sig.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
That sounds AWESOME
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
The Ballad of Punk Rock Jesus would be an awesome album title.
Just
fuckin'
saying.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis