Discussion of TV Tropes

Ace Rimmer · 2012-01-16 15:06:44

>
I don't think it helps that, well, SA are pointing out a lot of things wrong with the site, and tropers are making use of this, which I know he's noticed.

Aren't Tropers allowed to do this instead of being dismissed because they have no edit history?

lee4hmz · 2012-01-16 15:10:19

Fourier: Indeed. It's bad enough seeing that most of the things the trolls have been pointing out about TVT since at least late 2009 are not only true, but coming to a head. It's worse seeing people who aren't trolls in the slightest (and several people I rather liked, to boot) banned as enemies of the state when they just wanted to say goodbye.

It's why I'm not going to say anything when I go, if I do actually leave. I'm just going to log out and be done with it.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-16 15:10:24

"
considering I'm willing to make the difference between degrees of rape, it's a given that I'm willing to make differences in degrees of offenders."

Now on a scale of 1-10, how MUCH were you raped, where 1 is just heavy petting and 10 involves summoning the legions of the damned to gang-bang your soul?

Anonus · 2012-01-16 15:11:22

I didn't say anything upon 99%-quitting because I figure that would prolong my attachment to the place, somehow.

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 15:12:29

Whale, they're technically allowed to, but in practice, it is just reinforcing Eddie's belief that this is all just SA stirring shit and making mountains out of molehills, and I don't know what can be done about that.

And I reject the apparent belief that we shouldn't make use of edit and posting histories when assessing claims made by tropers. I don't think that a lack of editing history should warrant immediate dismissal of a person's arguments, but I actually think we should make more use of edit and posting history than we do at present, and that this would have avoided some very unfortunate mistakes, e.g. Anne Beeche's first ban.

millercross · 2012-01-16 15:14:29

Part of the problem for me, though, is that it's not listening to the arguments for something that is tangentially related to the discussion, if related at all.

What does it matter if I haven't edited a single wiki article in my life? Why does that make my opinion of the wiki any less valid, pray tell?

Anonus · 2012-01-16 15:14:31

Why do you think that should be?

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 15:20:11

Well, suppose Anne, with no posting history or edit history, had just turned up on the site solely to gripe about the fact that links from SA to TVT were no longer functional. Would that make her a productive member of the community? I don't see how it would.

Anonus · 2012-01-16 15:21:24

Hrm, good point.

millercross · 2012-01-16 15:23:57

that's a rather circumnstancial example, though.

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 15:26:55

Well, Juan, shouldn't we assess posters based on individual merit? Circumstances can make a great deal of difference, certainly enough to make checking edit and posting histories before making a snap judgement worthwhile.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-01-16 15:30:27

Fourier, I have a question

Why should someones edit history matter when we're talking about the forum side?

Manly McMacho · 2012-01-16 15:31:08

^This. Dedication to the wiki does not a good poster make, and vice versa.

millercross · 2012-01-16 15:32:20

Yeah, but that's not the logic under which edit and post histories are being checked, though. Edit and post histories are being judged simply to justify bans because Eddie doesn't like someone who's making an argument which he doesn't like.

I mean, I admit there are cases where post and edit history are important, and I'd even argue that taking them into account is and always should be just as important as seeing the behaviour displayed by the individual in a problematic situation. But there's a difference between this and banning someone because they have no edit history and thus, they're here just to complain. And even then, that implies that complaining is somehow counterproductive.

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 15:45:03

@ Whale and vM: A long and productive edit history makes it rather less likely that they're only there to troll. The forum is really only an adjunct to the wiki, not a distinct entity, and trolling the forums runs the risk of an edit ban as well (because many forum trolls are also wiki vandals), so somebody who has the sincere intention of helping the wiki is somewhat less likely to be purposefully trolling the forums than somebody who has no editing or posting history whatsoever.

@ Juan: I don't agree with that assessment at all, and it doesn't gel with the way Eddie talks on the mod board. The judgement is not "they have no edit history therefore they are only here to complain", it's "they have no edit history, they are saying unhelpful and insulting things [this whether you or I agree that the posts really are unhelpful or insulting], therefore there is a high probability that they are only here to make trouble".

millercross · 2012-01-16 15:53:08

The thing is, cause trouble here in this case seems to be more like "Speak up against the way things are done here" these days rather than, you know, actual trouble.

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 16:01:05

I agree, and this is a problem.

Also my computer mouse just stopped working and now I have to use this fucking piece of shit touchpad argh.

millercross · 2012-01-16 16:04:37

SMASH YOUR MOUSE TILL IT WORKS, BOBBY

Anonus · 2012-01-16 16:05:40

Somehow, all this talk about OTC and trying to relate to the admins about site issues makes me feel kind of silly that those were never big reasons for me to tire of the site. By the time I decided I was done I had been going there primarily for Yack Fest, which started to get boring to me.

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 16:12:03

@ Juan: XD

I'd rather smash the touchpad (which sucks, did I mention?), but then I would just have no mouse.

@ Anonus: I feel kind of the same way about YF now.

lee4hmz · 2012-01-16 16:12:27

AU: Same here. Until I saw pages I wrote or rewrote getting deleted and people getting banned for overtly political reasons, I didn't really care one way or another -- I was happy to just hang out in YF, and I figured OTC was kind of a lost cause anyway.

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 16:14:06

What do you mean by "banned for overtly political reasons"?

Anonus · 2012-01-16 16:14:13

YF has been impacted to me perhaps because a lot of people I considered fun to talk to left or spend less time there, and the Trash Heap's kind of turned into the new TU. I like a lot of the people there, but I still miss the way it used to be.

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 16:16:14

I sometimes wonder if I would like TVT more if I hung out on IRC, but I prefer forums and I've heard that both #tropers and #yakfest are pretty anti-TVT now.

Anonus · 2012-01-16 16:18:01

#yackfest does not like Fast Eddie very much, but a good deal of its population are members of the old guard (e.g. Ponicalica, Charlatan, Solstace).

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 16:20:06

Yes, that's what makes me sad.

It's the same reason I've never really seen much point in going back to IJBM (well, one of the reasons), and why I don't think I'd really fit in on BTL, either.

Anonus · 2012-01-16 16:21:14

I think Morven spent a period as the "voice of the mods" there, but he left.

lee4hmz · 2012-01-16 16:22:49

Well, banned because Eddie somehow decided they were a troll, as noted above. I guess that was a bit too on the nose.

And I had actually stopped posting in most of YF for quite a while because I found the new people hard to get along with. The constant attention whoring (something I've been guilty of in the past, I know) in certain threads along with a huge increase in what I saw as cliquishness, the Insecurity thread being grumpier and more irritable than usual, the fact that very few of my existing friends even posted in YF anymore aside from the Heap...it made it so that I was just lurking in threads where I wasn't sure people even remembered me, much less cared.

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 16:23:58

@ Anonus: I saw. It's a shame, I think I'd feel more at ease there if he was there as well.

@ Lee: OK, I see.

Regarding your second paragraph, I can relate. I try not to be too judgemental, though, because I was stupid and teenaged there once and I wasn't even as young as a lot of the people there now. I figure I might just have grown out of YF, which is a sad thing to admit.

Anonus · 2012-01-16 16:25:22

I remembered you, lee, and felt kind of sad that you didn't post more often.

Also I have trouble getting along with most of the newer people, which makes me feel guilty sometimes.

lee4hmz · 2012-01-16 16:26:58

AU: And that's why I tried to maintain more of a presence in the Heap, because I saw you posting that you missed me. :D

Anonus · 2012-01-16 16:28:15

...thanks.

millercross · 2012-01-16 16:28:37

For what it's worth, I think I can easily speak up for everybody in #yackfest when I say that you're more than welcome to be there. And I wish we talked about TvT less, but the fact is that...well, we all were or are members of that place. It's what tie us together in a way. And we've gotten bored and tired with the place so of course we don't think or speak highly. But we do make it a point to try and talk less often about it unless it involves any of us.

Tre · 2012-01-16 16:31:43

As a relatively new person to Yack Fest (I've only been there a few months, probably 7 or 8 at the most) I kinda really do feel bad for the attention whoring (which I am horribly guilty of). I didn't really go to Insecurity all that much, but I did notice the cliquishness because I couldn't really fit in with any of them myself.

Likewise, BTL makes me feel like I don't have anything to say (my post count is literally 12, as opposed to the hundreds most of the other posters have) and I never went onto IJBM because it just seemed like it wouldn't be the type of site I'd want to go to.

Obā-san · 2012-01-16 16:33:57

@ Tre: You seem to be a cool dude.

Tre · 2012-01-16 16:35:08

Thanks. :)

Anonus · 2012-01-16 16:45:00

I have an account on IJBM2 and was a regular there for the first couple of months. The place was loaded with too much inanity for my liking, so I tried leaving. My interest wound up waning naturally anyway.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-16 16:46:30

Tre is a pretty cool dude.

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 16:48:43

Well, thanks Juan, but I don't really like IRC channels that much, and I find this kind of discussion a bit draining, TBH.

I'll admit the reason I left IJBM had a lot to do with religion-bashing. I did feel that it was also kind of irrational and annoying in general, though.

millercross · 2012-01-16 16:49:48

Oh, well, I just thought you feared that we might eat your head or something.

lee4hmz · 2012-01-16 16:51:01

I've poked my nose into IJBM2 a few times, and I've even made the occasional post, but something about it just seems off to me. Like it's still, at heart, a bitch board, and anything else is considered tangential to the main attraction of complaining about stuff.

And it's too bad, too, because several people I like (including Waltzy and a few regulars here) are regulars there.

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 16:51:40

^^ XD

Nah, you know I like you guys. I just get a bit sick of having to defend the staff all the time, but I feel compelled to speak up for them when they get insulted because I don't feel they deserve all the hate that gets levelled at them.

^ Well, it is a bitch board. Sometimes the bitching leads to actual debates, though, which is why I used to like it. Plus some of the people there are fun.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-01-16 16:52:38

A long and productive edit history makes it rather less likely that
they're only there to troll. The forum is really only an adjunct to the
wiki, not a distinct entity, and trolling the forums runs the risk of
an edit ban as well (because many forum trolls are also wiki vandals),
so somebody who has the sincere intention of helping the wiki is
somewhat less likely to be purposefully trolling the forums than
somebody who has no editing or posting history whatsoever

So what if they have a forum posting history for say more than 6 months, are they still "trolling the forums"?.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-16 16:53:07

I always felt that the issue is more with the amount of time the staff has to police the fora than their ability to do so.

Something to be expected when the qualities that make a good mod often make a good, productive member of society.

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 16:55:14

^^ I'd say a long posting history is just as much evidence against that as a long editing history.

Which is why I said both editing and posting history earlier, you'll be kind enough to note.

Y'know, I sometimes feel like everything I say is being second guessed in this kind of thread. Like people assume I'm speaking in some kind of weird doublespeak, or start looking for loopholes. I'm not trying to deceive anyone.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-01-16 16:57:17

Its not looking for loopholes but just being clear on certain subjects thats all.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-16 16:57:24

:P

Tachyon · 2012-01-16 17:02:54

@ Justice: Hee.

@ Whale: OK, sorry. In any case, I do think we should make more use of posting histories than we have done in the past (myself included). I have suggested this on the mod board, and I'm hoping this gets taken on board in future.

Anonus · 2012-01-16 21:08:04

I was thinking that made more sense.

Yarrun XIX · 2012-01-16 21:40:34

Ah, yet another discussion thread about Tvtropes.

I feel at home.

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