Discussion of TV Tropes

lee4hmz · 2012-01-29 20:09:24

I always figured "hugbox" referred to the whole "everybody welcome, come in and kneel down and pray" nature of the early forums, not so much the "You sound like you're not praying hard enough, comrade" attitude that seems to circulate now.

That said: I think I'm ready to give up now. I gave up on Insecurity when it became more about bashing the posters and running them off the thread, I gave up on the MSPA thread when it became clear they were more interested in arguing with each other and giving newbies and weird theories shit like /v/ does than actually discussing the comic, and I stopped reading the Heap when everyone moved here. If I weren't still PMing Freezy, I could delete my account and be done with it.

millercross · 2012-01-29 20:12:15

> provided said fanfiction discusses lesbian oppression in the first place or if it can be brought up as a relevant argument.

It's a rather contrived scenario, but hardly impossible

Viani · 2012-01-29 20:13:04

I will never quit TV Tropes.

I will always go back.

I am TV Trope's nasty stockholm slut, and no matter how badly it betrays me, lets me down or makes me cry, I will go back to it eternally. Because I love it. I love the wiki, and jokes aside, it's one of my favorite sites out of the entire internet.

lee4hmz · 2012-01-29 20:15:43

Oh, I'd still be reading the wiki, myself, but the forums I think have ended their usefulness. Most of the people I care about are either here, or I'm talking to them in PMs on another site.

Bunny · 2012-01-29 20:17:23

For the most part, lesbian fanfic is just "Girls are hot let's make 'em fuck."

And the FIM fanbase has shown me how people can be quite homophobic while still loving lesbians.

Anonus · 2012-01-29 20:20:14

Deleting your account is not a good idea; somebody can just go snatch up your name if you do.

I used to enjoy the MSPA thread when people treated it like a Yack Fest megathread (I don't know if they still do), but Haven didn't like that and now I feel guilty.

Bunny · 2012-01-29 20:22:17

I think I'll still go to the LGBT thread from time to time. I love the people there, and it's usually a fun place to be.

Also, if I get obsessed with a particular game I might take place in the thread for it under Video Games.

Other than that, nope. Not going there.

Princess Alice · 2012-01-29 20:23:40

I think I'll still go to the LGBT thread from time to time. I love the people there, and it's usually a fun place to be.

I keep wanting to pop back in there, myself. The last few times I did though I was pretty much ignored.

Bunny · 2012-01-29 20:24:23

Unfortunately, it can get rather cliquey.

lee4hmz · 2012-01-29 20:24:26

AU: Yeah, I probably wouldn't even go that far; I'd probably just ignore the forums like I've been doing for a while.

And I enjoy reading the MSPA thread for some of the theories that were being discussed there after an update, but the few times I've tried posting there, I've gotten my head bitten off for being "stupid" and "not getting it". Dude, I came here to discuss Homestuck, not to join your shitty club.

And now it seems like they're doing that to each other. Fuck 'em. :P

Viani · 2012-01-29 20:25:15

It's one giant place that houses all the things I like. There's a Dissidia, Minecraft, Yume Nikki, Team Fortress 2 and Shoujo-ai Fanfiction Recommendation thread, there's forum games and roleplays to join, discussions about Avatar the Last Airbender and the WMGs for the new series, Nostalgia threads for the 90s, and many Manga Recommendation threads.

It seems like when they aren't joined together by a subject or series, all people tend to do is hate each other or be sad. But the fetid bullshit that occurs on Yack Fest and OTC holds no grounds on me since the ableistic or pseudo-intellectual assholes aren't writing new episodes for my favorite shows or helping me build my Cobblestone Castle, or donating their friendcard to me so I can farm Scarletite, or giving me saurce on yuri porn in PMs, <tourettes guy>SO FUCK EM</tourettes guy>

Anonus · 2012-01-29 20:26:23

I've never really had much to say in it because I have never had the best understanding of the comic's plot. My favorite part of it is probably the memes and fan work.

Sometimes I want to go back for certain media threads (MLP:FIM and Sonic, usually).

ProfessorGator · 2012-01-29 20:37:45

I was active in the Pokémon thread (I know, big surprise, right?) in the Video Games subforum until about a week ago. It was nice when people were talking about fangames and brainstorming ideas for "Fakemon" and made-up regions. But there's also a lot of talk about the metagame (which I can understand because it is related to the games, but I'm not really into it, so I wouldn't have anything to add) and occasionally the kind of ranting and complaining that I want to avoid. As such, it's not quite as interesting as it used to be.

I would have posted in some of the other media threads, but I don't think I know enough about their respective series to add to the discussion.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-29 20:54:05

"Well, I can see what you mean, but I don't know...I guess it just bothers me that people can't accept that discussions can go anywhere and instead of being productive instead decide to complain."

Part of the problem I have is that certain topics in certain sub-forums won't go "anywhere", the'll head in a rather predictable direction. This direction often comes with hostilities.

Viani · 2012-01-29 21:01:18

Like every pedophilia discussion ever imagined.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-01-30 03:35:01

Topics that are pro-paedophilia should be explicitly banned, its the only website I know where people think its okay to talk about it

Anonus · 2012-01-30 03:36:04

There's certain places (like BTL) where tropers, or at least those who argue against banning pro-pedophilia stuff and the like, seem to be perceived as being real out-of-touch with social mores.

Beholder · 2012-01-30 04:00:14

Err, just who is pro-pedophilia, anyway? I don't think that anyone ever advocated sexual relationships with a child in real life.

As fot BTL, I'm afraid that this place makes me angry as few other places in the Internet do.

Anonus · 2012-01-30 04:02:06

...maybe "pro-pedophilia" isn't the right word for it. And to be honest I haven't seen much of that, maybe I just stay out of the parts of the forum where it happens.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-01-30 04:09:04

^^

Not in real life but I am talking about KnJ apologists

Justice4243 · 2012-01-30 04:11:00

Edit: You know what? There's no reason this random thought needs to clog up a talk thread.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-01-30 04:12:05

An Apologist is someone who defends something?

millercross · 2012-01-30 04:12:41

Err, just who is pro-pedophilia, anyway? I don't think that anyone ever advocated sexual relationships with a child in real life.

aside from chagen, i don't think there really was such a thing as outspoken paedophillia, but there was a lot of justification towards lolicon, which leads to the whole normalization of kiddie porn, whether fictional and othewise, and the use of it to groom kids towards accepting sex with strangers or that loony alcoholic uncle, etc

Justice4243 · 2012-01-30 04:15:02

SLIPPERY SLOPE FALLACY!

And if you think me calling that out makes me a pedophilia apologists, I will cut you.

But, let's not get caught up in a semantic war over something I think we all agree is bad.

Anonus · 2012-01-30 04:15:18

You know, my opinion towards lolicon has grown less charitable lately (I think BTL helped; odd, as their your-kink-is-not-okay attitudes otherwise make me uncomfortable), and I think I only didn't find it creepy because I tried not to (it doesn't help that some people I was fond of liked it).

millercross · 2012-01-30 04:16:49

I don't follow how is that an slippery slope fallcy when it is a thing that has happened and has been documented...?

Justice4243 · 2012-01-30 04:17:26

Uh, HAS it happened and been documented?

millercross · 2012-01-30 04:25:30

It's been brought up in Japan courthouses and courts as part of the debate what should or should not be published, from what I've heard. Admittedly, I have a bare understanding on the matter, but from what I understand, it's definetly a thing. I'd try to find links and whatnot, but my google-fu (And my connection) are failing me

Viani · 2012-01-30 04:31:40

And then there's the group that goes "well if you are going to ban my lolishit then I suggest you ban guroshit and furryshit as well!"

Beholder · 2012-01-30 04:34:29

Pedophilia is not the same as lolicon, drawn characters are not the same as real kids, and yes, I think that blurring that kind of distinction is disturbing because under that definition one might as well count me as advocating murder, if not being murderer myself, also yes, I think that every kink is ok no exceptions as long as it is only engaged in real life in a consensual manner or not at all, also I have no idea apologist of what some people would see me now, and I hate BTL with a fiery passion...

Oh, blast it. Sorry for the lack of comprehension. It is so useless to argue, and lately I am really afraid of saying anything.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-30 04:34:32

I'm not sure I'd trust anyone in Japan to determine what is good and decent...

Anonus · 2012-01-30 04:39:54

Considering that I have a ton of weird fetishes I would consider it a bit hypocritical to go around being your-kink-is-not-okay most of the time, unless it actually harms people or seems a bit close for comfort.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-30 04:40:43

I don't think I have any fetishes that are all that weird, but I certainly understand where you're coming from.

Tachyon · 2012-01-30 05:08:26

>Tropers could be downright hostile, and many seem to be professionals in the art of being passive aggressive.

This is not actually allowed, and I don't think it's a good thing. The rules are not, in theory, supposed to discourage forthright valid criticism, but they are certainly supposed to prohibit passive-aggressive sniping.

Also, I think it depends on the board, somewhat. We try to moderate them all to the same standards, but what behaviours get reported varies from board to board, and I'm not sure how far that's representative of the frequency of the behaviours and how far it reflects the attitude of those hollering.

>And I enjoy reading the MSPA thread for some of the theories that were being discussed there after an update, but the few times I've tried posting there, I've gotten my head bitten off for being "stupid" and "not getting it". Dude, I came here to discuss Homestuck, not to join your shitty club.

Yes, this. This is exactly what's wrong with that thread.

I admit, I haven't monitored it closely since I returned from my break. I clearly still need to, because it doesn't sound like things have improved.

Problem is it moves so damn fast.

>Part of the problem I have is that certain topics in certain sub-forums won't go "anywhere", the'll head in a rather predictable direction. This direction often comes with hostilities.

Oh dear. OTC in a nutshell.

I think partly it's down to the personalities of those participating.

>Err, just who is pro-pedophilia, anyway? I don't think that anyone ever advocated sexual relationships with a child in real life.

I'm sorry to say that there have been one or two incidents, which resulted in immediate bans when discovered. IIRC one of Warsie's sockpuppets was among them.

>Justice's picture

...I don't wanna know.

>Discussion of kinks and lolicon

If I may weigh in on this... I'm not really sure about this whole "it enables real paedophiles" thing; that sounds sensationalist to me, and like Beholder said it can be applied to other things as well, although when you're talking about impressionable children maybe that's a difference that needs to be taken into consideration, I dunno. I wouldn't have said that was the main reason for banning it.

But I do think that the attitudes of many on TVT towards lolicon is alarming, and dangerous. It does have a normalising effect; I can sympathise very much with Anonus' experiences having felt similarly at one point, although I now think I was misguided. And furthermore, the immaturity of certain parts of the site's userbase is not encouraging.

I don't understand why attacking this stuff inevitably brings accusations of being "anti-anime". I like (some) anime. What does anime have to do with paedophilia? If anything, that kind of talk makes me suspicious of anime fans when I wasn't before. I'm sure it's not all anime fans, but there does seem to be a subset of anime fan culture which has a disturbingly high tolerance for the sexualisation of children and doesn't appear to see anything wrong with this.

(If it really was definitely just a kink with no bearing upon actual beliefs, it would still be inappropriate and offensive to discuss it publically.)

Justice4243 · 2012-01-30 05:09:56

"...I don't wanna know."

I don't think any of us do...

Viani · 2012-01-30 05:24:17

I do. :3

Anonus · 2012-01-30 06:23:25

So apparently it is possible to get banned from OTC now.

They seem to be pulling out all the stops in order to repair that place.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-01-30 10:10:43

It seems that the new rules about OTC threads being seen before they can be commented on is failing already because there are threads from 5 days ago that haven't been "approved" yet

Obā-san · 2012-01-30 13:06:23

This is not actually allowed,

Except for the fact that is, y'know, allowed.

Beholder · 2012-01-30 13:10:36

I'm sorry to say that there have been one or two incidents, which
resulted in immediate bans when discovered. IIRC one of Warsie's
sockpuppets was among them.

Sure, individual people like that happen, and I have nothing against banning them, because they do call to harming people in real life. But that is not different from a few trolls happening by - not something that warrants moral panic.

Tachyon · 2012-01-30 14:14:09

>It seems that the new rules about OTC threads being seen before they can be commented on is failing already because there are threads from 5 days ago that haven't been "approved" yet

We're not supposed to approve every OTC thread that gets made. I mean, that's kinda the point, y'know?

>Except for the fact that is, y'know, allowed.

Poor wording on my part, sorry. I meant, it's not supposed to be allowed. The rules are against it and we have do moderate against it, not always effectively.

Call it a failure of the don't be a dick rule or a failure to enforce the rules if you want, but it's not something tropers are supposed to be doing. That was my point. I think you probably knew that was my point, actually.

>Sure, individual people like that happen, and I have nothing against banning them, because they do call to harming people in real life. But that is not different from a few trolls happening by - not something that warrants moral panic.

But all tropers are individual people. Nobody said all tropers were paedophiles, or that we had an epidemic of paedophile apologists or anything like that.

Besides, I don't think what we're doing can be reasonably described as a moral panic. I've certainly not seen any panicking on the mod board.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-30 15:55:47

Moving a conversation on the main thread back where it belongs.

I agree with Fourier regarding bans.

Treating a ban like "killing someone online" seem very melodramatic to me.

Obā-san · 2012-01-30 16:06:05

So, I went back to scan the Absent People thread.

Apparently I left to make them feel bad, because I was clearly there for their entertainment.

What a buncha fucking cunts. Glad I left.

Apparently I should try to help them "Fix The Wiki". MacGyver couldn't fix that big a fuckup. "Quit instead of working hard", eh? Ever hear of Sisyphus?

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-30 16:14:42

As if we have an obligation to them.

I also think it's funny. "Fix the wiki"? Ain't nothing wrong with your wiki buddy, your problem is your forums.

regarding anime and lolicon: I know more anime fans that find even vanilla hentai disturbing than those who find Lolicon okay. Those that do tend to be from Sankaku Complex, and fuck those people.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-01-30 16:30:21

We're not supposed to approve every OTC thread that gets made. I mean, that's kinda the point, y'know?

But a convo can't start with mod approval or a mod opening up the conversation.

Misery · 2012-01-30 16:30:33

Fixing the wiki and forums? There's no way.

millercross · 2012-01-30 16:39:01

I also think it's funny. "Fix the wiki"? Ain't nothing wrong with your wiki buddy, your problem is your forums.

That's a rather disinformed statement. anybody can see the wiki's problems. Between the lack of understanding ande deliberate misuse of terms such as Deconstruction, and the general "Hey, just because we're casual, we're allowed to dismiss intellectualism and actual thought and just be very basic" attitude, there're plenty of problems. Especially for a wiki that is supposedly preoccupied with the discussion of media.

Princess Alice · 2012-01-30 16:44:19

But a convo can't start with mod approval or a mod opening up the conversation.

I think Fourier's point is that a thread not being approved doesn't necessarily indicate a lack of action on the mods' part--it's possible they simply decided the thread will not be approved for whatever reason.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-01-30 16:47:16

But they lock threads that have no discussional merit, those threads aren't locked. No one can post in them at all except mods.

Also:

This site (like a very large proportion of the world at large) has a
problem with the gender/sex distinction. "Gender" in a trope title
almost always means "anatomical sex", not gender as such. The
stereotypical case of Unsettling Gender Reveal
is a person who presents as female but turns out to be anatomically
male. What the person in question identifies as isn't actually relevant
to the trope.

Halp, my brain is broken now :/

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-30 16:55:50

That's a rather disinformed statement. anybody can see the wiki's problems. Between the lack of understanding ande deliberate misuse of terms such as Deconstruction, and the general "Hey, just because we're casual, we're allowed to dismiss intellectualism and actual thought and just be very basic" attitude, there're plenty of problems. Especially for a wiki that is supposedly preoccupied with the discussion of media.

I can see why this'd be a problem from your point of view, but it honestly bothers me very little.

*shrug*

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