Plus gamers treat any failure of engagement to be a universally player-side issue.
It's not like I'm talking about a game being too dense or esoteric to understand. I'm talking about games denying access to their narrative, emotional, and thematic arc based on essentially arbitrary grounds.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
There sure are a lot of vaguisms.
Kex, you really need to be specific. Like, yesterday, I asked you to show me what you thought was the "right" way about "talking about Snape." And it's okay if you don't want to. But you left me hanging.
If you don't want to do it, tell me, and I'll say no more. But at the same time, you're being really vague about everything and refuse to illustrate your examples.
decided to play Phantasy Star 3, to complete the trilogy
initial impression: not as good as 4 (of course) but not without interest. the fact that you don't see your characters in the battle screens is a detail that bothers me, though.
what games specifically are you actually talking about because these are all vaguisms you're tossing about
Okay, now I have time to talk.
I'm talking about literally any game requiring any sort of skill to play to completion.
I like games that challenge me. But, if a game is trying to convey any sort of themes, if it's trying to have a story, it needs to take steps to ensure that as many people can access those as possible. When a game does not take sufficient steps, it doesn't /ruin/ it, but it does make it so that many people who would otherwise be interested cannot experience it. And that is a damn shame.
I mean, okay, whatever, people can get pissy and tell me to "git gud" and stop complaining, but the fact is that the medium is almost completely inaccessible to blind and deaf people, needlessly frustrating for colorblind people, and downright impossible for people with any sort or dexterity or hand-eye coordination problem for large swathes of games. And you can't argue that that isn't a problem.
In that sense of the word though, what if the struggle is a part of the story.
Like, take the Last of Us for example, a story about holding on to what you have. if this is demonstrated by the game's mechanics of it being hard to hold on to what you have, then including an easy mode could possibly be detriment to that story.
I haven't played that game, but I agree with what you're saying.
Take Dark Souls. For all its reputation, even if it is difficult, it includes features that allow most players to be able to experience it without sacrificing the difficulty. And its fundamental experience is contained within its first few hours; everything after that makes the game immensely more fulfilling and interesting, but you can have the essential Dark Souls experience just by playing the first handful of areas.
I'm not advocating a universal "easy mode" approach. I'm asking for it to be a consideration built into the game without sacrificing the game's emotional journey.
Here's the thing, though, a hard mode can detract from that emotional experience just as much as an easy mode. Case in point: Mass Effect 2 on Insanity mode was very doable for me, but even if I was capable of beating the game, the image of Shepard as an unstoppable badass was kind of ruined.
I didn't feel that way at all. It makes Shepard even more of a badass in hindsight, because the borderline flawless run you did at each point is the only "canon" one. All those embarrassing deaths literally never happened.
It made the game feel more trial and error. Ideally the game should feel somewhat difficult but the constant deaths do detract from the notion that Shepard is competent and intelligent.
what games specifically are you actually talking about because these are all vaguisms you're tossing about
Okay, now I have time to talk.
I'm talking about literally any game requiring any sort of skill to play to completion.
I like games that challenge me. But, if a game is trying to convey any sort of themes, if it's trying to have a story, it needs to take steps to ensure that as many people can access those as possible. When a game does not take sufficient steps, it doesn't /ruin/ it, but it does make it so that many people who would otherwise be interested cannot experience it. And that is a damn shame.
I mean, okay, whatever, people can get pissy and tell me to "git gud" and stop complaining, but the fact is that the medium is almost completely inaccessible to blind and deaf people, needlessly frustrating for colorblind people, and downright impossible for people with any sort or dexterity or hand-eye coordination problem for large swathes of games. And you can't argue that that isn't a problem.
well first of all I think you're talking about two seperate things. More games should absolutely include an eg. colorblind-friendly mode, and indeed it's a thing I've seen a lot of indie devs start to do recently. Hopefully the majors will follow suit.
as for the other thing, well, I sympathize to your plight, but some things are supposed to be exclusionary, and I don't really see why that's inherently bad.
Some stuff just isn't made for you. Or me, as the case may be.
I've played The Last Of Us on easy mode, and while it does take away the whole "struggle to make your supplies last" aspect of the game, after dying numerous times on harder modes because of the lack of supplies, I was quite happy to play on easy mode.
But again, it's exclusion on arbitrary grounds. If I have some fundamental issue with the themes and world of Dark Souls, or if I just don't like esoteric things, that's a valid example of "some things not being made for me." "I lack the physical ability to complete this game, even if I want to" is not.
But again, it's exclusion on arbitrary grounds. If I have some fundamental issue with the themes and world of Dark Souls, or if I just don't like esoteric things, that's a valid example of "some things not being made for me." "I lack the physical ability to complete this game, even if I want to" is not.
I don't really see how.
Someone giving you shit for that would be stupid (so would someone giving you shit for preferring like, Skyrim) but Dark Souls is a game you have to be willing to practice a lot, and contrary to popular belief I don't really think there are many games that you can't become good at even if you practice a ton.
Now, going back to what you said earlier there are some people who have physical disabilities and hand-eye coordination problems, and i agree that that does suck for them, but that's a different issue as opposed to simply not being good enough at the game.
I read "some stuff just isn't made for you" as talking about stuff like hardest game modes e.g. Lunatic in Touhou, in which case those being exclusionary is pretty fair, I feel. Mind you, I do also think more games should have options that don't inhibit their ability to be experienced, like colorblind-friendly modes. But the two are rather separate issues (and only one is an issue).
Even yesterday I was stuck at a very frustrating point in Marathon Rubicon (there's a bit where you have to go through an entire level with no functioning checkpoints, the entire level is underwater, your oxygen supply is limited, and there is at one point a unique enemy who fires homing grenades at you), but I just stuck to it and eventually persevered.
I did lower the difficulty but that didn't seem to help since I died several times before finishing regardless.
Dark Souls isn't really the example I'd use. It's a game fundamentally about understanding, mastery, etc. Its challenge is fully justified and in numerous ways it does make itself accessible to people who aren't good at games.
And this isn't about being given shit, it's about having an experience locked off for no valid reason. For example Mass Effect's gameplay is fun and all but its focus is its story and themes. I lucked out because I'm good at the gameplay and was very interested in the story, but accessing either is dependent on the other, even though neither half actually necessitates having the other.*
*I mean, Mass Effect obviously gets a lot of mileage out of its scifi action setpieces, but making them so skill based needlessly restricts certain people from being able to enjoy them. And yes, I agree that the challenge makes it more rewarding for the people who can do it, but there are ways to be challenging while still being accessible.
Dark Souls isn't really the example I'd use. It's a game fundamentally about understanding, mastery, etc. Its challenge is fully justified and in numerous ways it does make itself accessible to people who aren't good at games.
And this isn't about being given shit, it's about having an experience locked off for no valid reason. For example Mass Effect's gameplay is fun and all but its focus is its story and themes. I lucked out because I'm good at the gameplay and was very interested in the story, but accessing either is dependent on the other, even though neither half actually necessitates having the other.*
*I mean, Mass Effect obviously gets a lot of mileage out of its scifi action setpieces, but making them so skill based needlessly restricts certain people from being able to enjoy them. And yes, I agree that the challenge makes it more rewarding for the people who can do it, but there are ways to be challenging while still being accessible.
I'm not honestly sure what you're referring to then.
I've never played any of the Mass Effect games, not my thing.
I read "some stuff just isn't made for you" as talking about stuff like hardest game modes e.g. Lunatic in Touhou, in which case those being exclusionary is pretty fair, I feel. Mind you, I do also think more games should have options that don't inhibit their ability to be experienced, like colorblind-friendly modes. But the two are rather separate issues (and only one is an issue).
Touhou is a game about expressing skill. This necessitates skimping on storytelling. A game that tries to tell a story needs to ensure players of all skill levels can complete it.
Competitive games (which I consider Touhou to be) are different. Accessibility is always a good thing but the nature of a complete emotional experience is different in Touhou than it is in a game based around a story.
Like I said, it was an example, and a bad one but I've been getting back into it so it was on my mind. I haven't completed it yet, but I feel like I could just as easily say Hard mode for Hotline Miami 2, or maybe Hotline Miami 1/2 in themselves (which tends to be regarded as difficult). HM1/2 aren't too hindered by their difficulty, I don't think, in telling you their stories.
Man, I could reference other games, but I also tend to prefer competitive games (not to say I lack experience with non-competitive games), and I've just been playing both of those over the past little while. :v
I think your problem, if it could be called one, is that you're looking at Game Design as some huge overarching thing whereas most people who make video games are either trying to make something that sells or just making something they'd like.
And I'm stating opinions on what I think is the most productive route to making good games. It's not like I'm enforcing this or shoving it down people's throats.
And I'm stating opinions on what I think is the most productive route to making good games. It's not like I'm enforcing this or shoving it down people's throats.
That's not universally true. A lot of people couldn't even manage that. For one thing, it's one of the biggest reasons why older people can't get into the medium.
But one of the problems with ME's difficulty settings is that they don't really, like, tell you anything the way a game with more dynamic difficulty like Dark Souls does. Like I said, with 2 I was more than able to beat it on Insanity but I might have had more fun on a lower difficulty. Just giving names and a broad idea of what difficulties entail (and let's face it, if your description of "Insanity mode" is "enemies are super duper hard" you might as well not have a description) is insufficient. Whereas with Dark Souls, even if I recognized that, say, magic would make the game easier and using certain weapons would make it harder, I realized that I would have the most fun with swords and light armor. And the game made that decision making process very natural and intuitive. This is a good thing.
And I'm stating opinions on what I think is the most productive route to making good games. It's not like I'm enforcing this or shoving it down people's throats.
I didn't say you were!
I know, but the way you said what you said was just kinda... patronizing? Like, yeah, I know people don't make games specifically to appeal to me.
And I'm stating opinions on what I think is the most productive route to making good games. It's not like I'm enforcing this or shoving it down people's throats.
I didn't say you were!
I know, but the way you said what you said was just kinda... patronizing? Like, yeah, I know people don't make games specifically to appeal to me.
I did not intend it to be patronizing.
I don't understand why you think I'm always trying to pick a fight with you.
So someone I know from IRC has put out her new game, and there's more on her itch.io, here, and here. Check it out and spread it about, would you please?
I Chain of Memories II 358/2 Days Birth By Sleep re:coded Dream Drop Distance
Of these, the first four are all good and have interesting stories, re:coded has quite possibly the most vestigial story of any game in any franchise I've ever played, Dream Drop Distance is tying up plot threads and giving a fanfic-y (but decentish) story, and Birth By Sleep, while one of the more popular entries, is responsible for pretty much every complaint against the series.
In all honesty, controversial opinion and all, but BBS may very well be the worst one in terms of story.
re:coded was silly and pointless but it was harmless, and Dream Drop Distance's biggest problem was that it had to tie BBS into the rest of the series.
358/2 kinda sucked. It was really grindy and overtuned. Like, it wasn't hard, it was just really repetitious, severely limited your ability to cast anything, and they made goddamn everything in the game an HP sponge for no reason.
I mostly liked Dream Drop Distance, and the Flowmotion worked very nicely. But the bosses were way too spammy for my taste. Other entries in the series had bosses that gave you openings, could be countered, or you could stagger them into a combo. But the DDD bosses attacked continuously and couldn't be interrupted. Just about the only way you could attack them and not die was to run away like a wuss casting fire and balloons.
That's not universally true. A lot of people couldn't even manage that. For one thing, it's one of the biggest reasons why older people can't get into the medium.
If someone can't push their way through Mass Effect's easiest modes, we have a far more serious problem than game difficulty going on. These people you speak of might be missing a few hands.
I'm shit awful at cover shooters. And even I didn't find it that hard. Hell, the first time I went through the first game I was losing frames left and right and still managed.
I Chain of Memories II 358/2 Days Birth By Sleep re:coded Dream Drop Distance
Of these, the first four are all good and have interesting stories, re:coded has quite possibly the most vestigial story of any game in any franchise I've ever played, Dream Drop Distance is tying up plot threads and giving a fanfic-y (but decentish) story, and Birth By Sleep, while one of the more popular entries, is responsible for pretty much every complaint against the series.
what is a "vestigial" story?
Also what do people not like about KH, I only know "Simple & Clean" which is a great entry into the genre of "woman sings her heart out about something"
re:coded was Kingdom Hearts: the Clip Show: the Game.
No, really. It was like, Sora in memory rehab after Chain of Memories, and Namine was stuffing all his memories back in his head via a shallow rehash of the first game's worlds. That was it.
Comments
It's not like I'm talking about a game being too dense or esoteric to understand. I'm talking about games denying access to their narrative, emotional, and thematic arc based on essentially arbitrary grounds.
initial impression: not as good as 4 (of course) but not without interest. the fact that you don't see your characters in the battle screens is a detail that bothers me, though.
I'm talking about literally any game requiring any sort of skill to play to completion.
I like games that challenge me. But, if a game is trying to convey any sort of themes, if it's trying to have a story, it needs to take steps to ensure that as many people can access those as possible. When a game does not take sufficient steps, it doesn't /ruin/ it, but it does make it so that many people who would otherwise be interested cannot experience it. And that is a damn shame.
I mean, okay, whatever, people can get pissy and tell me to "git gud" and stop complaining, but the fact is that the medium is almost completely inaccessible to blind and deaf people, needlessly frustrating for colorblind people, and downright impossible for people with any sort or dexterity or hand-eye coordination problem for large swathes of games. And you can't argue that that isn't a problem.
Take Dark Souls. For all its reputation, even if it is difficult, it includes features that allow most players to be able to experience it without sacrificing the difficulty. And its fundamental experience is contained within its first few hours; everything after that makes the game immensely more fulfilling and interesting, but you can have the essential Dark Souls experience just by playing the first handful of areas.
I'm not advocating a universal "easy mode" approach. I'm asking for it to be a consideration built into the game without sacrificing the game's emotional journey.
Here's the thing, though, a hard mode can detract from that emotional experience just as much as an easy mode. Case in point: Mass Effect 2 on Insanity mode was very doable for me, but even if I was capable of beating the game, the image of Shepard as an unstoppable badass was kind of ruined.
And this isn't about being given shit, it's about having an experience locked off for no valid reason. For example Mass Effect's gameplay is fun and all but its focus is its story and themes. I lucked out because I'm good at the gameplay and was very interested in the story, but accessing either is dependent on the other, even though neither half actually necessitates having the other.*
*I mean, Mass Effect obviously gets a lot of mileage out of its scifi action setpieces, but making them so skill based needlessly restricts certain people from being able to enjoy them. And yes, I agree that the challenge makes it more rewarding for the people who can do it, but there are ways to be challenging while still being accessible.
Competitive games (which I consider Touhou to be) are different. Accessibility is always a good thing but the nature of a complete emotional experience is different in Touhou than it is in a game based around a story.
But one of the problems with ME's difficulty settings is that they don't really, like, tell you anything the way a game with more dynamic difficulty like Dark Souls does. Like I said, with 2 I was more than able to beat it on Insanity but I might have had more fun on a lower difficulty. Just giving names and a broad idea of what difficulties entail (and let's face it, if your description of "Insanity mode" is "enemies are super duper hard" you might as well not have a description) is insufficient. Whereas with Dark Souls, even if I recognized that, say, magic would make the game easier and using certain weapons would make it harder, I realized that I would have the most fun with swords and light armor. And the game made that decision making process very natural and intuitive. This is a good thing.
I
Chain of Memories
II
358/2 Days
Birth By Sleep
re:coded
Dream Drop Distance
Of these, the first four are all good and have interesting stories, re:coded has quite possibly the most vestigial story of any game in any franchise I've ever played, Dream Drop Distance is tying up plot threads and giving a fanfic-y (but decentish) story, and Birth By Sleep, while one of the more popular entries, is responsible for pretty much every complaint against the series.
re:coded was silly and pointless but it was harmless, and Dream Drop Distance's biggest problem was that it had to tie BBS into the rest of the series.
How is the Jaguar Bubsy game somehow worse than Bubsy 3D?