Importance is not really the issue; the two issues are 1) is Zelda at any point helpless and requiring a rescue by Link? and 2) is Zelda's role an "object" in the plot, or a driving character? This is what the video is about.
She's helpless at the end, but it makes sense to the plot.
Her role isn't as an object (and her role could hardly be considered an object in any of the games), she's the reincarnation of Hyrule's goddess who had herself kidnapped so she could reclaim Hyrule. In doing so she has to participate in an adventure just as dangerous as Link's, only she has even less preparation for it than he does.
I've learned to tolerate drama...except on the boat
Mario never struck me as tongue-in-cheek...I always got the impression that the mainline games stuck to that plot because Shiggy figured that people were used to it and wanted the series to be simple and/or overly-consistent.
The PM and M&L games have made efforts to get away from being so reliant on save-Peach-again, though, and their progenitor SMRPG isn't all about that either.
It's kind of funny going back over my posts and seeing it go from "This video is okay" to "This video is okay, but she's made a few stupid points" to "Everything this woman has said has been incorrect."
Mario never struck me as tongue-in-cheek...I always got the impression that the mainline games stuck to that plot because Shiggy figured that people were used to it and wanted the series to be simple and/or overly-consistent.
The PM and M&L games have made efforts to get away from being so reliant on save-Peach-again, though, and their progenitor SMRPG isn't all about that either.
It could also have been done purpose, didn't that one game that starred princess peach "Have crying as one of her powers" All this "It's just tongue in cheek" just seems to be moralizing.
More people have said that and been killed than there are thorium decay products.
Kex: If Zelda causes any change to happen in the plot with her own actions, then this is a good thing, but the requiring-a-rescue is still a damsel-in-distress situation. It's okay to have a favorite game have a sexist trope in it, and realize it. Just, developers should be more forward-thinking in their portrayals of women.
To use A Link to the Past as an example (since I have played this game many times), Zelda helps Link at a number of points, by dispensing exposition and advice, but she also requires saving a grand total of three separate times. She is rather useless; her function is essentially a tool that Ganon is using to take over the world, and Link's plot is all about stopping Ganon and rescuing Zelda. She is even literally reduced to the form of an object during the latter half of the game (a crystal), when most people in the Dark World become trees or animals or monsters.
Anyway, I don't think there is a lot more to say here, and I still think Zelda is a good series. Just, I don't find anything wrong with what this woman says, even if there is nothing especially new or poignant in this video, and I think we should all examine the entertainment we enjoy with a critical eye, as it gives us insight into our culture, and our own ways of thinking.
Earthlight Ray said:Kex: If Zelda causes any change to happen in the plot with her own actions, then this is a good thing, but the requiring-a-rescue is still a damsel-in-distress situation. It's okay to have a favorite game have a sexist trope in it, and realize it. Just, developers should be more forward-thinking in their portrayals of women.
To use A Link to the Past as an example (since I have played this game many times), Zelda helps Link at a number of points, by dispensing exposition and advice, but she also requires saving a grand total of three separate times. She is rather useless; her function is essentially a tool that Ganon is using to take over the world, and Link's plot is all about stopping Ganon and rescuing Zelda. She is even literally reduced to the form of an object during the latter half of the game (a crystal), when most people in the Dark World become trees or animals or monsters.
Anyway, I don't think there is a lot more to say here, and I still think Zelda is a good series. Just, I don't find anything wrong with what this woman says, even if there is nothing especially new or poignant in this video, and I think we should all examine the entertainment we enjoy with a critical eye, as it gives us insight into our culture, and our own ways of thinking.
The problem lies in the fact that she didn't critically examine anything, she just said "heres some stuff its sexist i guess" and didn't go any deeper than that. She examined none of the underlying causes nor any factors in the games that might cause the alleged sexism to be present.
The problem lies in the fact that she didn't critically examine anything, she just said "heres some stuff its sexist i guess" and didn't go any deeper than that. She examined none of the underlying causes nor any factors in the games that might cause the alleged sexism to be present.
But that doesn't necessarily mean what she said was "wrong" just not as introspective as it could be,
Which I might remind you, a lot of people are agreeing with that point.
The problem lies in the fact that she didn't critically examine anything, she just said "heres some stuff its sexist i guess" and didn't go any deeper than that. She examined none of the underlying causes nor any factors in the games that might cause the alleged sexism to be present.
But that doesn't necessarily mean what she said was "wrong" just not as introspective as it could be,
Which I might remind you, a lot of people are agreeing with that point.
The point she made wasn't wrong, but a lot of the examples were, and because the point was something that most people can agree on all that really matters are the examples.
Something that "most" people can agree upon, considering the back-lash that went into the whole thing in the first-place, I wouldn't be saying a phrase like that.
The backlash was more because of who was doing it rather than the point being made.
Interesting theory you've got there.
I can't tell if you're mocking me or if you're being serious, but I'm leaning towards mocking.
I'm not the one suggesting that an internet flame-war happened because a specific person was running a kick-starter and not because the subject was about trying to address female representation and presentation in video-games. nor am I the one presenting that what she's saying is "Common sense", i.e, what most people are like.
The backlash was more because of who was doing it rather than the point being made.
Interesting theory you've got there.
I can't tell if you're mocking me or if you're being serious, but I'm leaning towards mocking.
I'm not the one suggesting that an internet flame-war happened because a specific person was running a kick-starter and not because the subject was about trying to address female representation and presentation in video-games
Do you even know who she is? She's been a controversial subject in the past.
What Anita Sarkeesian actually says is irrelevant, because her very existence offends neckbeards and that is a good thing.
This is basically how I feel. I doubt watching her videos would be worth the time investment since I get the feeling most of the things she's saying are along the lines of stuff that I already read about from the tumblr reblog circuits, so instead I'm just going to laugh at the people who are oh so horribly offended at her.
i actually kinda enjoyed it. i'm sure it wasn't groundbreaking, but some of it was new to me. i found the Zelda part interesting, and the stuff about Dinosaur Planet.
You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
Am I the only one who feels the whole "I'll mock otherkin by 'identifying' as something outlandish and nonsensical" gag has gotten old?
It was funny the first couple times, when people played it straight enough that Tumblr was like "wait, are you serious?", but now it's just like "oh, another one of these, eh?"
Regarding the conversation that has dominated the last page-and-a-half: Sarkeesian points out at the end of the video that she is herself very much a fan of the Zelda games, but that does not mean that she does not find elements of the games problematic. Really, I think that's a very healthy way to look at media. We should be skeptical of retrogressive qualities in media that we admire even more than in media that we dislike because we hold it to a higher personal standard.
Sredni Vashtar said:Regarding the conversation that has dominated the last page-and-a-half: Sarkeesian points out at the end of the video that she is herself very much a fan of the Zelda games, but that does not mean that she does not find elements of the games problematic. Really, I think that's a very healthy way to look at media. We should be skeptical of retrogressive qualities in media that we admire even more than in media that we dislike because we hold it to a higher personal standard.
And it is a healthy way to look at media, but it doesn't mean that everything has to be sexist. The worst that has ever come of the "save the girl" plot is girls being excluded on the playground.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
I sincerely doubt that the worst negative impact of a cultural norm in which women are often relegated to useless characters in constant need of rescuing is simply that some girls have been "left out" in elementary school.
I sincerely doubt that the worst negative impact of a cultural norm in which women are often relegated to useless characters in constant need of rescuing is simply that some girls have been "left out" in elementary school.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Still, I think the idea that it's "harmless enough" is pretty flawed. It's good that it's mostly looked down upon NOW, but their was a time where it wasn't and likely contributing or at the very least reflecting a negative attitude of women.
Regarding the conversation that has dominated the last page-and-a-half: Sarkeesian points out at the end of the video that she is herself very much a fan of the Zelda games, but that does not mean that she does not find elements of the games problematic. Really, I think that's a very healthy way to look at media. We should be skeptical of retrogressive qualities in media that we admire even more than in media that we dislike because we hold it to a higher personal standard.
And it is a healthy way to look at media, but it doesn't mean that everything has to be sexist. The worst that has ever come of the "save the girl" plot is girls being excluded on the playground.
And not everything is, nor is she saying that. The problem is that a lot of recurring ideas and stereotypes do have a strong sexist undercurrent that can be damaging to a developing worldview, be the child in question male or female. The whole "save the girl" plot very often is sexist in execution because it deprives the lead female character of agency and reinforces the whole "men act, women are" dynamic. It's patronising, to put it mildly.
And it's not even an indictment of those franchises alone, but of the fact that this motif is so common that it has become background noise. Communist theorist Antonio Gramsci used the word "hegemony" to describe when a retrogressive idea is made prevalent through being treated as "common sense," perpetually reinforcing an oppressive or reactionary concept through sheer ubiquity and innocuousness. To a certain degree, the conventional take on the "damsel in distress" plot is a form of hegemony: It says "women are weak and need to be saved by men," and whether many people consciously believe it or not, people subconsciously accept the notion as positive in some respect.
Now, you may say, "But no! I do not believe this!" but the counter to that is easy: You are not everyone. Not everyone is as free of personal prejudice as you are. Furthermore, just because something shows hegemonic qualities does not mean that it may not be progressive in some areas nor does it automatically mean that it is somehow "bad." It is simply a matter of saying, "This thing I like has problems. I am aware of them, but that does not change the fact that I like this thing." So it goes.
I'd say there were two big reasons for the plot device:
1. Video games were considered mainly for heterosexual males, with the stereotype being that no heterosexual male would want to play as a female rescuing a male.
2. Having someone the hero is close to be kidnapped is an easy way to incite an adventure, especially if you don't particularly care about the plot.
I'd say there were two big reasons for the plot device:
1. Video games were considered mainly for heterosexual males, with the stereotype being that no heterosexual male would want to play as a female rescuing a male.
2. Having someone the hero is close to be kidnapped is an easy way to incite an adventure, especially if you don't particularly care about the plot.
Reasons are not excuses. Just because a thing makes sense doesn't mean that it should happen.
Regarding the conversation that has dominated the last page-and-a-half: Sarkeesian points out at the end of the video that she is herself very much a fan of the Zelda games, but that does not mean that she does not find elements of the games problematic. Really, I think that's a very healthy way to look at media. We should be skeptical of retrogressive qualities in media that we admire even more than in media that we dislike because we hold it to a higher personal standard.
And it is a healthy way to look at media, but it doesn't mean that everything has to be sexist. The worst that has ever come of the "save the girl" plot is girls being excluded on the playground.
And not everything is, nor is she saying that. The problem is that a lot of recurring ideas and stereotypes do have a strong sexist undercurrent that can be damaging to a developing worldview, be the child in question male or female. The whole "save the girl" plot very often is sexist in execution because it deprives the lead female character of agency and reinforces the whole "men act, women are" dynamic. It's patronising, to put it mildly.
And it's not even an indictment of those franchises alone, but of the fact that this motif is so common that it has become background noise. Communist theorist Antonio Gramsci used the word "hegemony" to describe when a retrogressive idea is made prevalent through being treated as "common sense," perpetually reinforcing an oppressive or reactionary concept through sheer ubiquity and innocuousness. To a certain degree, the conventional take on the "damsel in distress" plot is a form of hegemony: It says "women are weak and need to be saved by men," and whether many people consciously believe it or not, people subconsciously accept the notion as positive in some respect.
Now, you may say, "But no! I do not believe this!" but the counter to that is easy: You are not everyone. Not everyone is as free of personal prejudice as you are. Furthermore, just because something shows hegemonic qualities does not mean that it may not be progressive in some areas nor does it automatically mean that it is somehow "bad." It is simply a matter of saying, "This thing I like has problems. I am aware of them, but that does not change the fact that I like this thing." So it goes.
The plot device isn't sexist, it's the ubiquity that makes it sexist.
^ Well, that's reductive, too. The way that the device is usually used is sexist in and of itself, but the ubiquity of the device is far more sexist in the long run.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
I'm fine with using the idea that "someone close to the hero has been captured and needs rescuing" but the idea that "heterosexual males would have hang ups about playing a woman rescuing a man" is certainly a stereotype I would not like to propagated.
^ Well, that's reductive, too. The way that the device is usually used is sexist in and of itself, but the ubiquity of the device is far more sexist in the long run.
There's a big difference between "the plot device" and "the way the plot device is used," and the fact that Sarkeesian couldn't tell the difference between the two is one of the big problems of the video.
I'm fine with using the idea that "someone close to the hero has been captured and needs rescuing" but the idea that "heterosexual males would have hang ups about playing a woman rescuing a man" is certainly a stereotype I would not like to propagated.
And I agree. But then it brings up the whole "all female protagonists are overly sexualized" thing.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
The plot device isn't sexist, it's the ubiquity that makes it sexist.
"Damsel in distress" is like dictionary definition level of sexism.
Now, there are ways you can employ "Female needs rescuing" and avoid the pitfalls of her appearing to be a character only employed to drive the hero to move the plot along, but I don't think game makers often hit this mark.
There's a big difference between "the plot device" and "the way the plot device is used," and the fact that Sarkeesian couldn't tell the difference between the two is one of the big problems of the video.
She specifically made that distinction from 12:45 - 13:28.
Even if she hadn't i have no idea where you're getting this. i would be astonished if she couldn't.
Comments
To use A Link to the Past as an example (since I have played this game many times), Zelda helps Link at a number of points, by dispensing exposition and advice, but she also requires saving a grand total of three separate times. She is rather useless; her function is essentially a tool that Ganon is using to take over the world, and Link's plot is all about stopping Ganon and rescuing Zelda. She is even literally reduced to the form of an object during the latter half of the game (a crystal), when most people in the Dark World become trees or animals or monsters.
Anyway, I don't think there is a lot more to say here, and I still think Zelda is a good series. Just, I don't find anything wrong with what this woman says, even if there is nothing especially new or poignant in this video, and I think we should all examine the entertainment we enjoy with a critical eye, as it gives us insight into our culture, and our own ways of thinking.
To use A Link to the Past as an example (since I have played this game many times), Zelda helps Link at a number of points, by dispensing exposition and advice, but she also requires saving a grand total of three separate times. She is rather useless; her function is essentially a tool that Ganon is using to take over the world, and Link's plot is all about stopping Ganon and rescuing Zelda. She is even literally reduced to the form of an object during the latter half of the game (a crystal), when most people in the Dark World become trees or animals or monsters.
Anyway, I don't think there is a lot more to say here, and I still think Zelda is a good series. Just, I don't find anything wrong with what this woman says, even if there is nothing especially new or poignant in this video, and I think we should all examine the entertainment we enjoy with a critical eye, as it gives us insight into our culture, and our own ways of thinking.
The problem lies in the fact that she didn't critically examine anything, she just said "heres some stuff its sexist i guess" and didn't go any deeper than that. She examined none of the underlying causes nor any factors in the games that might cause the alleged sexism to be present.
Which I might remind you, a lot of people are agreeing with that point.
i actually kinda enjoyed it. i'm sure it wasn't groundbreaking, but some of it was new to me. i found the Zelda part interesting, and the stuff about Dinosaur Planet.
But yes, it's kind of an overused joke.
I still laughed though, because bus. XD
is this on a zazzlepoetry tshirt yet and if not why not
And it is a healthy way to look at media, but it doesn't mean that everything has to be sexist. The worst that has ever come of the "save the girl" plot is girls being excluded on the playground.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
And not everything is, nor is she saying that. The problem is that a lot of recurring ideas and stereotypes do have a strong sexist undercurrent that can be damaging to a developing worldview, be the child in question male or female. The whole "save the girl" plot very often is sexist in execution because it deprives the lead female character of agency and reinforces the whole "men act, women are" dynamic. It's patronising, to put it mildly.
The plot device isn't sexist, it's the ubiquity that makes it sexist.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
She specifically made that distinction from 12:45 - 13:28.
Even if she hadn't i have no idea where you're getting this. i would be astonished if she couldn't.