Thing that the genre tends to do is give the outward appearance of being Dark and Sexy while it fundamentally plays into traditionalist ideals. People want Dark and Sexy while having their regressive views validated, so the books have a market, but since it doesn't have anything of value no singular book sticks in the popular consciousness for long.
well i didn't say 'i like this because im wrong' just that id have reservations about calling it my fave
i suppose i did say it was the wrong answer to what's my fave book
w/e tho
I'm just saying you should have more confidence in your gut opinion. Favorite things are personal. You don't have to force it to be something "better" because all "favorite" implies is how much something appealed to you.
Like I fully acknowledge that Zelda isn't the best series ever made but damned if it isn't my favorite. I have reasons why it is appeals to me personally and by the same token it's not regressive or anything like that so I don't really have to justify it.
well maybe
i don't like my gut very much
if the same parts of me that like harry potter also dislike my gut then we have a contradiction, oh dear
The *genre* resonates. Twilight was only popular because it appealed to a lot of regressive ideals while superficially looking subversive. Ultimately it was thematically weightless, hence why there's little to no dialogue about it only a few years after its conclusion. Twilight doesn't immediately resonate just because it comes from a genre that does. It's just that popularity and actually meaning stuff to people often look similar.
hence why there's little to no dialogue about it only a few years after its conclusion.
we spent a reasonable amount of time discussing it in my contemporary Gothic course in the winter. a lot of contemporary vampire texts were and still are responses to twilight and its popularity in one way or another. without twilight, would there have ever been, for instance, a TV adaptation of true blood? its influence has waned but it tapped into something, even if it wasn't something radically new
i think sometimes teen girls get tired of stereotypically girly junk and twilight appealed to that niche
like hot topic clothes w pink skulls and junk like that, it takes something gendered and recontextualizes it in a way that's mildly subversive
twilight is not notably more regressive than most novels of its kind ime, although the fantasy elements introduce some weird unfortunate implications
but i think most people who read it did so as escapist fiction, not in search of meaning
And that's all well and good but you can't filter out the message a work conveys just because you're not looking for one. If you read and enjoyed Twilight chances are that you absorbed its rather horrid ideas in some capacity even if it was "just escapism." Hell, that's ignoring the suburban conservative moms who did think it was Good Moral Stuff to share with their kids.
hence why there's little to no dialogue about it only a few years after its conclusion.
we spent a reasonable amount of time discussing it in my contemporary Gothic course in the winter. a lot of contemporary vampire texts were and still are responses to twilight and its popularity in one way or another. without twilight, would there have ever been, for instance, a TV adaptation of true blood? its influence has waned but it tapped into something, even if it wasn't something radically new
Impact doesn't necessarily carry meaning. A lot of Twilight's superficial trappings are popular but the work itself doesn't seem to actually matter aside from those trappings. Twilight's effect was almost exclusively in in popularizing supernatural romance but almost none of its actual ideas have carried over beyond vampires and werewolves are sexy. Even then the supernatural romance is fading out after 50 Shades supplanted Twilight.
Whereas virtually every element of something like Harry Potter from its structure to its broad mythological ideas have been imitated. Its aesthetic trappings less so, but its story beats and character archetypes still influence YA books and movies pretty visibly today.
And that's all well and good but you can't filter out the message a work conveys just because you're not looking for one. If you read and enjoyed Twilight chances are that you absorbed its rather horrid ideas in some capacity even if it was "just escapism."
i'm not convinced that's actually true. You can be aware something has a message you don't like but ignore it because it's not what you're interested in, i think. idk, maybe this stuff has an unconscious influence, i'll leave that to the psychologists.
Whereas virtually every element of something like Harry Potter from its structure to its broad mythological ideas have been imitated. Its aesthetic trappings less so, but its story beats and character archetypes still influence YA books and movies pretty visibly today.
i never liked the HP films all that much, they lacked a lot of the things i liked about the books
Actually I'd go out on a limb and say most of Twilight's audience was teenagers who really don't have much need for escapist fantasy like adults do.
And honestly no, you just straight up can't divorce a work from its meaning. Otherwise there would be no point in criticizing escapist fantasy at all, nor would there be a point to trying to make escapism not regressive.
You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
Wow this has been a weird weekend, sleep-wise
Incidentally I had a dream where I had to quiz someone on calculus using pizza
Actually I'd go out on a limb and say most of Twilight's audience was teenagers who really don't have much need for escapist fantasy like adults do.
And honestly no, you just straight up can't divorce a work from its meaning. Otherwise there would be no point in criticizing escapist fantasy at all, nor would there be a point to trying to make escapism not regressive.
Nonetheless, every fan I've talked to emphasized how it "wasn't just sex" and how it "actually was a really good love story."
iirc there isn't any sex in those books, there's an implied sex scene in the last book, that's it
a 'good story' doesn't necessarily mean 'this should happen irl'
i do think twilight was somewhat irresponsible in that teens are less likely to have relationship experience and therefore may be influenced by unrealistic portrayals of such
nevertheless, it's presented as a fantasy. probably depends on the reader
You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
Nonetheless, every fan I've talked to emphasized how it "wasn't just sex" and how it "actually was a really good love story."
iirc there isn't any sex in those books, there's an implied sex scene in the last book, that's it
a 'good story' doesn't necessarily mean 'this should happen irl'
An action in a story happens on at least two levels: The literal action itself and the way the narrative frames that action. There's nothing wrong with portraying an abusive relationship, but Twilight frames its relationship as being wonderful and ideal. That's an issue.
And if the abuse subtext is noninvasive enough to the general public to where the work can be classified as "escapist" that's pretty problematic wrt how we teach teenage girls how to view relationships.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
Kex, I think you're not trying to say that because society is fucked up, so certain works of fiction are blameless. That's what that sounds like to me, and I'm pretty sure that's not what you want to say.
Basically, people saw a book where a guy follows a woman around, watches her sleep, and doesn't let her talk to certain people and barely recognized those qualities as abusive. That this didn't register is indicative of how we view relationships, and I think it's pretty unnerving that the series validates those forms of abuse.
Basically, people saw a book where a guy follows a woman around, watches her sleep, and doesn't let her talk to certain people and barely noticed it. That this didn't register is indicative of how we view relationships, and I think it's pretty unnerving that the series validates those forms of abuse.
i think a lot of people noticed this but figured it was ok in this instance because it was perfect Edward and he had his reasons
now i am NOT saying this is a good thing or that authors should emulate Meyer, just that i don't think you're giving the readers much credit as far as capacity for critical thought goes
i mean by the same logic i could say Harry Potter supports racism (some have) but this clearly goes against the implied message of the books
the implied message of twilight is not that creepy stalkers are great, it's a fantasy about an imaginary sparkly boyfriend
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i don't like my gut very much
if the same parts of me that like harry potter also dislike my gut then we have a contradiction, oh dear
but it obviously wasn't written for me
also fantasy trappings aside it v much belongs to the wider genre of romance novels with associated conventions and assumptions
and that genre predates the mainstream english novel so its clearly resonating w somebody
like hot topic clothes w pink skulls and junk like that, it takes something gendered and recontextualizes it in a way that's mildly subversive
twilight is not notably more regressive than most novels of its kind ime, although the fantasy elements introduce some weird unfortunate implications
but i think most people who read it did so as escapist fiction, not in search of meaning
tho that was henry selick, i know
madness returns moreso
Impact doesn't necessarily carry meaning. A lot of Twilight's superficial trappings are popular but the work itself doesn't seem to actually matter aside from those trappings. Twilight's effect was almost exclusively in in popularizing supernatural romance but almost none of its actual ideas have carried over beyond vampires and werewolves are sexy. Even then the supernatural romance is fading out after 50 Shades supplanted Twilight.
Whereas virtually every element of something like Harry Potter from its structure to its broad mythological ideas have been imitated. Its aesthetic trappings less so, but its story beats and character archetypes still influence YA books and movies pretty visibly today.
And honestly no, you just straight up can't divorce a work from its meaning. Otherwise there would be no point in criticizing escapist fantasy at all, nor would there be a point to trying to make escapism not regressive.
according to dream-logic
The former paragraph thing
i was gonna say, Kex and i must have been very different teens
a 'good story' doesn't necessarily mean 'this should happen irl'
i do think twilight was somewhat irresponsible in that teens are less likely to have relationship experience and therefore may be influenced by unrealistic portrayals of such
nevertheless, it's presented as a fantasy. probably depends on the reader
The correct answer was "bean", all lowercase
And if the abuse subtext is noninvasive enough to the general public to where the work can be classified as "escapist" that's pretty problematic wrt how we teach teenage girls how to view relationships.
i do however think stories should be interpreted in context if you want to know how their intended readers will interpret them
i am not going to argue with the assertion that it has "issues"
it has plenty of issues
now i am NOT saying this is a good thing or that authors should emulate Meyer, just that i don't think you're giving the readers much credit as far as capacity for critical thought goes
i mean by the same logic i could say Harry Potter supports racism (some have) but this clearly goes against the implied message of the books
the implied message of twilight is not that creepy stalkers are great, it's a fantasy about an imaginary sparkly boyfriend