I was raised to believe that boys and girls were basically the same apart from the physical differences, but I never understood how you were supposed to be feminine or masculine aside from really obvious things like overtly gendered clothing.
I remember thinking I should have been a girl when I was very young, and mentioning this to my mother and being told that no, I was a boy, and there was nothing wrong with me the way I was and I could still like dolls and stuff.
The problem lies in that there are differences, but they have nothing to do with societal expectations and queer and trans* people tend to turn those things on their heads when studied. Dumb but studied example: How men and women give and take directions and find out where they are. Slightly less dumb but also studied: The manifestation of the "fight or flight" response.
I was raised to believe that boys and girls were basically the same apart from the physical differences, but I never understood how you were supposed to be feminine or masculine aside from really obvious things like overtly gendered clothing.
I remember thinking I should have been a girl when I was very young, and mentioning this to my mother and being told that no, I was a boy, and there was nothing wrong with me the way I was and I could still like dolls and stuff.
I am not sure exactly how I was raised, by at some point I came to the conclusion that boys and girls are basically the same apart from those obvious physical differences such as clothing and hair styles and the way people think of each other through a lens of gender.
And that "lens of gender" is made up of a set of (theoretically separable) expectations/norms/roles, and it generally does more harm than good. So what I'm trying to do is to think without this "lens" as much as I can. It's a little inevitable when it comes to questions of romance and sexuality, but even there I try to think of people as individuals first, and as their gender second.
On the directions and flight-or-fight examples - since it's been demonstrated that the physical brain changes to reflect use, and since it's very difficult to determine whether something is the result of nature or nurture, couldn't it be the case that something in our culture unconsciously influences men to behave one way in those situations and women in another way?
The problem lies in that there are differences, but they have nothing to do with societal expectations and queer and trans* people tend to turn those things on their heads when studied. Dumb but studied example: How men and women give and take directions and find out where they are. Slightly less dumb but also studied: The manifestation of the "fight or flight" response.
Even if such differences exist for mature individuals, I suspect it has more to do with the way we as a society raise children than anything inherently associated with genders -- not to mention that the brain is known to be plastic enough to change its way of interpreting things. So one would be better off simply assuming a common baseline using other factors rather than gender, when dealing with people anew -- and especially not letting gender bias one's view of what a person is (dis)inclined or (un)able to do.
Actually re:my mum's alleged open-mindedness, she is pretty uncomfortable with discussing transgender issues, like when they come up in the news or whatever, on the grounds that 'people should keep their sexualities to themselves' which did make me very nervous about telling her I was bi.
All things considered things could have been a lot worse though. I count myself as fortunate.
So I guess the problem I'm having is that, from what I've learned and seen, gender isn't a thing...but I'm being told that that gender is a thing, and being told this by people who are also against gender stereotyping. So is it a thing or is it not a thing?
The best answer I've seen so far is that, it can be or not be a thing for oneself but its "thingness" status can also vary for other people. Which seems to imply that it's not "really" a thing when it comes to a baseline of understanding humanity, but this implication is offensive to those people who believe it's a thing.
@ Glenn: I don't understand how you're jumping from 'socially constructed' to 'not a thing'.
Language is socially constructed, or largely so. Is language not a thing?
Language can exist independently of its social construction. It's not a values or cultural judgement to say that a passage of text or spoken language is, say, in Spanish or French. But can the same be said of gender? Can it be separated from both biology and social cues and still exist on its own? (open question, not sarcasm)
On the directions and flight-or-fight examples - since it's been demonstrated that the physical brain changes to reflect use, and since it's very difficult to determine whether something is the result of nature or nurture, couldn't it be the case that something in our culture unconsciously influences men to behave one way in those situations and women in another way?
This is a good point, although there are other differences that I could point to. There are also typically differences in the rates at which and ways in which boys and girls learn different subjects at an early age.
But!
That does not mean that the differences are salient beyond some residual biological things, like in basically any other animal, and no two people are alike. The idea that all men or women are one way or another is stupid. It's just that brushing off transgender and other phenomena as purely psychological strikes me as exceedingly reductive.
also i fixed this rice porridge poorly and I thought I was going to have a bad time in the bathroom from it but apparently i didn't and i had quite normal digestive response to it.
Language can exist independently of its social construction. It's not a values or cultural judgement to say that a passage of text or spoken language is, say, in Spanish or French.
Sure it is. It's only our social norms which decide which words and sentence structures belong to which language, or what meanings they convey. Outside of human society, there is nothing inherently meaningful or Spanish about a set of vocal sounds or marks on a page.
But can the same be said of gender? Can it be separated from both biology and social cues and still exist on its own? (open question, not sarcasm)
We can write the word 'he' or 'girl', or draw a picture of a person that everyone would recognize as 'male' just as readily as they would recognize that a written document is in Spanish.
It's just that brushing off transgender and other phenomena as purely psychological strikes me as exceedingly reductive.
I'm not really trying to 'brush it off' so much as I'm saying I'm not sure if there's proof one way or the other.
And I'm trying to say that I think it's more complicated than just being one or the other. I think there's plenty of evidence from neuropsychology and, interestingly, zoology (see Bagemihl's Biological Exuberance, specifically the section on thinhorn sheep) to suggest that gender dysphoria has biological roots, but saying that it is purely bodily ignores the way that social structures and enforced gender roles in human society influence the way that we see ourselves.
More people have said that and been killed than there are thorium decay products.
I'm not sure how to explain it: I have a penis; the thought of using it in the "intended" way makes me very uncomfortable. As a child, I was told I am a boy and I have to do boy things, but I always felt like it definitely should have been the opposite: why am I not one of them? etc. Some unfortunate things happened to my body circa puberty that were non-puberty-related, but puberty all by itself was a source of extreme discomfort. I hated what my body was turning into, "other" issues aside. It might be unfair if I mentioned my emotional state at the time, due to the many, many factors. Then there is pronouns: "he" or "she" are words that separate us into a binary, and I don't care what someone's idea is of the difference; the fact is that when I am being grouped with the males, I feel like I am trapped in a stage show and wearing a costume. My mind tells me, always, "I should be one of the females," and fuck anyone who says I am wrong.
^^ I'm not sure what's happened here... you seem to be trying to persuade me of something I already think, so I guess I have been misleading. Sorry about that.
Either way, not gonna argue with any of that. The sheep thing is new to me, and interesting.
But can the same be said of gender? Can it be separated from both biology and social cues and still exist on its own? (open question, not sarcasm)
We can write the word 'he' or 'girl', or draw a picture of a person that everyone would recognize as 'male' just as readily as they would recognize that a written document is in Spanish.
Fair enough; I can't think of a reasonable way to refute this analogy, so I conclude you have a point. I'll have to ponder this more.
(fyi i am not being sarcastic. for reals. just a bit stodgily formal which i think sounds a bit awkward but i really am getting tired of having to rephrase everything i write just to make sure that i don't sound offensive)
I'm not sure how to explain it: I have a penis; the thought of using it in the "intended" way makes me very uncomfortable. As a child, I was told I am a boy and I have to do boy things, but I always felt like it definitely should have been the opposite: why am I not one of them? etc. Some unfortunate things happened to my body circa puberty that were non-puberty-related, but puberty all by itself was a source of extreme discomfort. I hated what my body was turning into, "other" issues aside. It might be unfair if I mentioned my emotional state at the time, due to the many, many factors. Then there is pronouns: "he" or "she" are words that separate us into a binary, and I don't care what someone's idea is of the difference; the fact is that when I am being grouped with the males, I feel like I am trapped in a stage show and wearing a costume. My mind tells me, always, "I should be one of the females," and fuck anyone who says I am wrong.
I guess from this perspective, one could say that I've been trying to contend that there isn't any difference between "he" and "she", while you and others are contending that there exists a difference but the concepts are a lot more fluid than they are usually perceived to be.
I am trying to work out how these two visions can be mutally compatible.
You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
As a child, I was told I am a boy and I have to do boy things, but I always felt like it definitely should have been the opposite: why am I not one of them? etc. Some unfortunate things happened to my body circa puberty that were non-puberty-related, but puberty all by itself was a source of extreme discomfort. I hated what my body was turning into, "other" issues aside. It might be unfair if I mentioned my emotional state at the time, due to the many, many factors. Then there is pronouns: "he" or "she" are words that separate us into a binary, and I don't care what someone's idea is of the difference; the fact is that when I am being grouped with the males, I feel like I am trapped in a stage show and wearing a costume. My mind tells me, always, "I should be one of the females," and fuck anyone who says I am wrong.
More people have said that and been killed than there are thorium decay products.
Thinking about gender always makes me feel frustrated and upset. Especially because the right of a person to have the brain chemistry and physiology they feel comfortable with is such a luxurious commodity in this world, if you are trans, and I have not been one of the super fortunate ones, so far.
(fyi i am not being sarcastic. for reals. just a bit stodgily formal which i think sounds a bit awkward but i really am getting tired of having to rephrase everything i write just to make sure that i don't sound offensive)
and this is why shitposting
because sometimes i just get tired of being polite and want to tell everything that annoys me to go fuck off, but without the risk of offending people and causing long-term negative consequences
so imagine that i have acquired a supply of pie tins and shaving cream, and i have filled the pie tins with shaving cream, and i am throwing them at you all
As a child, I was told I am a boy and I have to do boy things, but I always felt like it definitely should have been the opposite: why am I not one of them? etc. Some unfortunate things happened to my body circa puberty that were non-puberty-related, but puberty all by itself was a source of extreme discomfort. I hated what my body was turning into, "other" issues aside. It might be unfair if I mentioned my emotional state at the time, due to the many, many factors. Then there is pronouns: "he" or "she" are words that separate us into a binary, and I don't care what someone's idea is of the difference; the fact is that when I am being grouped with the males, I feel like I am trapped in a stage show and wearing a costume. My mind tells me, always, "I should be one of the females," and fuck anyone who says I am wrong.
so imagine that i have acquired a supply of pie tins and shaving cream, and i have filled the pie tins with shaving cream, and i am throwing them at you all
Basically, male and females live apart most of the year except at oestrus, barely interacting. The males exhibit a high prevalence of homosexual behaviour - by which I mean they do the sex with each other a lot - when the females are not in heat, but a small number of physically male members of each group will stay with the females all year and refuse to have relations with other males when an advance is made in a nigh-identical mirror to the female response.
So yes. Thinhorn sheep. Very, very gay, with a sprinkling of trans* for good measure.
Comments
I remember thinking I should have been a girl when I was very young, and mentioning this to my mother and being told that no, I was a boy, and there was nothing wrong with me the way I was and I could still like dolls and stuff.
I sometimes find the amount of throat clearing and forced politeness done in the humanities comical.
I thought you might wanna know
My mum has never had a high opinion of gender roles or gender stereotyping.
Aesop Rock and Rob Sonic texting each other like an old married couple.
And that "lens of gender" is made up of a set of (theoretically separable) expectations/norms/roles, and it generally does more harm than good. So what I'm trying to do is to think without this "lens" as much as I can. It's a little inevitable when it comes to questions of romance and sexuality, but even there I try to think of people as individuals first, and as their gender second.
All things considered things could have been a lot worse though. I count myself as fortunate.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/10684179/Men-and-women-do-not-have-different-brains-claims-neuroscientist.html
So I guess the problem I'm having is that, from what I've learned and seen, gender isn't a thing...but I'm being told that that gender is a thing, and being told this by people who are also against gender stereotyping. So is it a thing or is it not a thing?
The best answer I've seen so far is that, it can be or not be a thing for oneself but its "thingness" status can also vary for other people. Which seems to imply that it's not "really" a thing when it comes to a baseline of understanding humanity, but this implication is offensive to those people who believe it's a thing.
Language is socially constructed, or largely so. Is language not a thing?
I got a message for ya
don't
look
in the closet
I'm not really trying to 'brush it off' so much as I'm saying I'm not sure if there's proof one way or the other.
Either way, not gonna argue with any of that. The sheep thing is new to me, and interesting.
(fyi i am not being sarcastic. for reals. just a bit stodgily formal which i think sounds a bit awkward but i really am getting tired of having to rephrase everything i write just to make sure that i don't sound offensive)
I am trying to work out how these two visions can be mutally compatible.
Again, sorry if my phrasing is awkward.
This movie will get you six rozpoints for watching.
For three Rozpoints, I can draw my mental image of you and post it.
because sometimes i just get tired of being polite and want to tell everything that annoys me to go fuck off, but without the risk of offending people and causing long-term negative consequences
so imagine that i have acquired a supply of pie tins and shaving cream, and i have filled the pie tins with shaving cream, and i am throwing them at you all
IN A FIT OF RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE
When you say trying to brush off transgender and other phenomena as purely psychological is reductive, that's as opposed to what?
More proof that I am the anti-Naneypangurassassin.
Seriously, other than the trees of custom in the Sam of pajamas games, have we ever agreed on anything?