Remember back in the 50s when they'd record like Elvis singing YOU AIN'T NOTHIN BUT A HOUND DOG and then they'd turn the record over and reverse it and it was all NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP and people were all like, "That is actually the voice of Satan coming from that song."
I would argue that a world that adopts feminist ideals would probably, as a result, not have male-specific biases either. I think that for every harmful expectation of the male gender, there is a corresponding harmful expectation of the female gender.
This is entirely fair. The parts of the feminist movement I think are worthy of criticism are the ones that ultimately DON'T work towards its ideals.
I know that "feminism" isn't just about women as much as it is about working out a lot of gender-discrimination and gender-bias issues regarding both genders, but I still think it needs renaming.
I would argue that a world that adopts feminist ideals would probably, as a result, not have male-specific biases either. I think that for every harmful expectation of the male gender, there is a corresponding harmful expectation of the female gender.
Regarding the feminist movement, something that bugs me is the association of the 'gender as a social construct' argument with TERFs.
I first encountered the concept during a class on Judith Butler, who opposes transphobia, and it really resonated with and made sense to me. Then I found out the kinds of arguments it's commonly used to support, and, eesh.
Remember back in the 50s when they'd record like Elvis singing YOU AIN'T NOTHIN BUT A HOUND DOG and then they'd turn the record over and reverse it and it was all NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP and people were all like, "That is actually the voice of Satan coming from that song."
The "gender as a social construct" thing... it really depends on whether you mean gender roles or psychological gender. The former is socially constructed. The latter we aren't entirely sure, but as far as we can tell is primarily inherent to the person.
I'm finding that I'm having to walk a fine line on that.
Since I do personally believe that non-biological gender is indeed a social construct along the same lines as personality and gender roles (which I also believe are completely non-inherent), but ever since the first time I've gotten into a pronoun argument with someone here in the extended TVT community (some of you may remember this), I've realized it's a subject that I have to tread lightly on.
I guess in part I'm biased because the thought that the only thing distinguishing me from a woman is a set of social conventions is a nice thought, in that it fits comfortably with my general perception of the world, and also my perceptions of myself.
But it concerns me that if one allows that gender, in any sense besides physical sex, has a biological basis, then traditionalists can latch onto that and use it to rationalize gender roles.
So far, it seems to work (barely/kinda/ehh) for me to not personally recognize it but to recognize for other people that gender identity is a thing.
It's a little odd, though, because (1) I had thought that I took the most progressive and egalitarian stance -- that gender didn't exist outside biological gender, and thus all people are to be treated with the same respect and baseline assumptions -- but clearly, some people disagree with me. (2) That strange feel when you just have a null answer for a personal profile field that people consider to be a thing, or alternatively when other people insist that there a personal profile field that you've already combined with another field (personality/personal identity) and don't mentally list separately.
Regarding the feminist movement, something that bugs me is the association of the 'gender as a social construct' argument with TERFs.
I first encountered the concept during a class on Judith Butler, who opposes transphobia, and it really resonated with and made sense to me. Then I found out the kinds of arguments it's commonly used to support, and, eesh.
Remember back in the 50s when they'd record like Elvis singing YOU AIN'T NOTHIN BUT A HOUND DOG and then they'd turn the record over and reverse it and it was all NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP and people were all like, "That is actually the voice of Satan coming from that song."
Trans-Exclusionary Radical Feminist
Their tagline is basically: Trans women are men trying to invade women's safe spaces, and trans men are filthy gender traitors.
Or a disturbing recent development on Tumblr: Trans women are more important than trans men, and we should bully and discriminate against trans men because they choose to associate with male privilege or some bullshit like that.
I figure if gender is socially constructed then the most honest statement of my gender is what other people typically perceive me to be, which is male.
If gender is a question of personal identification, well, same I guess, but I'm not really happy having a gender, and I kind of feel like calling myself 'male' usually implies a bunch of things that I don't really understand, don't really like, and don't have any claim to.
I used to think I detested my body for being male, but now I'm not sure that sex or gender has anything to do with that. I dunno. It's confusing.
The one thing I haven't figured out is...what is it about gender identity that sets it apart from the rest of one's identity? Alternatively, how exactly does one define oneself to be male or female (or otherwise), aside from through one's biological profile/anatomical properties?
Every time I've asked anyone, I can't get an answer that is independent of social cues regarding gender -- gender roles, gender norms, gender expectations, gender discrimination, etc.. But all of those are social constructs themselves.
I figure if gender is socially constructed then the most honest statement of my gender is what other typically perceive me to be, which is male.
If gender is a question of personal identification, well, same I guess, but I'm not really happy having a gender, and I kind of feel like calling myself 'male' usually implies a bunch of things that I don't really understand, don't really like, and don't have any claim to.
But the way I see it is that the bunch of things it implies are all social constructs themselves anyway.
I don't feel that I have a gender identity that is separate from my biological gender. At the same time, I don't feel that my biological gender defines any other part of who I am, except for some basic biological functions (such as how I use the bathroom, or how I prefer to interact sexually with other people).
So if you were to ask me what my gender identity is, that's kinda like asking me what color my airplane is. I don't own a (real, full-size) airplane, so the question is...hard to answer. I can pull an arbitrary answer out of thin air -- for example, I can take a piece of white paper and fold a paper airplane, or I can speak of the last flight I was on, or my favorite model of airplane -- but it has no inherent answer.
it's sort of an internal feeling of how one's body "should" be. it's pretty much all intuition, really, and a lot of people don't have these feelings and have trouble understanding those who do
I mean, yeah, the things I'm referring to about what 'male' typically implies are social constructs, I don't really doubt that.
But like, they're still what 'male' typically implies, so by identifying as male, which I guess I do, I'm aligning myself with a bunch of stuff I'm neither interested in nor capable of embodying.
This is immature maybe, or maybe I'm overthinking things, I don't know. I'm not transgender, I just... kind of want to opt out of the whole gender thing? And if 'gender' is something more than a social construct then that implies that I can't.
I'm not offending anyone by talking about myself like this, am I? I realize this is probably rather insensitive of me, but it's something I never feel is appropriate to talk about anywhere else.
I personally would like to be able to dissociate myself from a gender identification online mostly because it carries a lot of social assumptions about stuff, including but not limited to interactions with the other gender.
(Unfortunately, English doesn't work well for that. Hence my really wanting a non-gendered third person non-object pronoun set that can work for specific -- not just hypothetical -- people.)
I mean, yeah, the things I'm referring to about what 'male' typically implies are social constructs, I don't really doubt that.
But like, they're still what 'male' typically implies, so by identifying as male, which I guess I do, I'm aligning myself with a bunch of stuff I'm neither interested in nor capable of embodying.
This is immature maybe, or maybe I'm overthinking things, I don't know. I'm not transgender, I just... kind of want to opt out of the whole gender thing? And if 'gender' is something more than a social construct then that implies that I can't.
I guess one way I see it is that, instead of changing my gender identity to fit societal expectations of gender roles/norms, I'm simply postulating that those expectations mean nothing.
I'm kind of not reading most of the conversation because I'm also watching something and have already had this discussion 8 billion times, to be perfectly honest.
The larger gender argument that is, not relating to anyone here in particular.
I'm not offending anyone by talking about myself like this, am I? I realize this is probably rather insensitive of me, but it's something I never feel is appropriate to talk about anywhere else.
I'm afraid I'm being the offending one, haha. You're not offending me at all.
I'm kind of not reading most of the conversation because I'm also watching something and have already had this discussion 8 billion times, to be perfectly honest.
The larger gender argument that is, not relating to anyone here in particular.
Do you mind if we have this conversation anyway? Because I'm interested in it.
i was worried that bug spray had gotten onto it somehow
...which does not make a lot of sense given that the bread wasn't in the house when mom sprayed the bug spray and all the time it has been in the house it has been wrapped in plastic
I'm not offending anyone by talking about myself like this, am I? I realize this is probably rather insensitive of me, but it's something I never feel is appropriate to talk about anywhere else.
Nah, you're fine. I'm kind of interested in having this discussion with you, but it also requires having this discussion with GMH and his conversational style isn't something I want to put up with right now, so...
(Unfortunately, English doesn't work well for that. Hence my really wanting a non-gendered third person non-object pronoun set that can work for specific -- not just hypothetical -- people.)
I still think it works fine for specific people. I'm a specific person and I am OK with being singular they'd.
I guess one way I see it is that, instead of changing my gender identity to fit societal expectations of gender roles/norms, I'm simply postulating that those expectations mean nothing.
(no offense meant)
None taken, but I think you see the problems with this, with regards to transgender people? Not to mention wider discussions of gender expectations and roles. When people express views on gender, they clearly mean something.
I'm not offending anyone by talking about myself like this, am I? I realize this is probably rather insensitive of me, but it's something I never feel is appropriate to talk about anywhere else.
Nah, you're fine. I'm kind of interested in having this discussion with you, but it also requires having this discussion with GMH and his conversational style isn't something I want to put up with right now, so...
Sorry...I'm basically still trying to reconcile the difference in how I understand gender with how people who have a gender identity understand gender, and I'm also basically trying to work out what's acceptable for me to say and what's not.
I have sort of a patch solution right now, but it still feels awkward.
I'm kind of interested in having this discussion with you, but it also requires having this discussion with GMH and his conversational style isn't something I want to put up with right now, so...
i dont think goosebumps books ever came into print i think they just mystically appeared in public school libraries one day already in mediocre condition
The book that scared me the most at school was a morality fable about a boy who always did the opposite of what adults told him to do, and then they told him not to lie with his head at the foot of the bed or skeletons would come and get him, so then he lay with his head at the foot of the bed and skeletons came in the night and turned him into a black spot on the pillow, and his mother saw the spot on the pillow and scrubbed and scrubbed it until it was gone, and they never found out what became of him.
The book that scared me the most at school was a morality fable about a boy who always did the opposite of what adults told him to do, and then they told him not to lie with his head at the foot of the bed or skeletons would come and get him, so then he lay with his head at the foot of the bed and skeletons came in the night and turned him into a black spot on the pillow, and his mother saw the spot on the pillow and scrubbed and scrubbed it until it was gone, and they never found out what became of him.
2spooky
Horror short stories are the only form of kids literature allowed to have sad endings.
Comments
It's an old term, obsolete in regular usage, but it survives as a legal term.
there are probably better sources.
I first encountered the concept during a class on Judith Butler, who opposes transphobia, and it really resonated with and made sense to me. Then I found out the kinds of arguments it's commonly used to support, and, eesh.
My mic was so bad.
Since I do personally believe that non-biological gender is indeed a social construct along the same lines as personality and gender roles (which I also believe are completely non-inherent), but ever since the first time I've gotten into a pronoun argument with someone here in the extended TVT community (some of you may remember this), I've realized it's a subject that I have to tread lightly on.
But it concerns me that if one allows that gender, in any sense besides physical sex, has a biological basis, then traditionalists can latch onto that and use it to rationalize gender roles.
It's a little odd, though, because
(1) I had thought that I took the most progressive and egalitarian stance -- that gender didn't exist outside biological gender, and thus all people are to be treated with the same respect and baseline assumptions -- but clearly, some people disagree with me.
(2) That strange feel when you just have a null answer for a personal profile field that people consider to be a thing, or alternatively when other people insist that there a personal profile field that you've already combined with another field (personality/personal identity) and don't mentally list separately.
IT'S THE FREEEEEE RIDE WHEN YOU'VE ALREADY PAID
IT'S THE GOOD ADVIIIIICE THAT YOU JUST DIDN'T TAKE
AND WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT
IT FIGURED
If gender is a question of personal identification, well, same I guess, but I'm not really happy having a gender, and I kind of feel like calling myself 'male' usually implies a bunch of things that I don't really understand, don't really like, and don't have any claim to.
I used to think I detested my body for being male, but now I'm not sure that sex or gender has anything to do with that. I dunno. It's confusing.
Every time I've asked anyone, I can't get an answer that is independent of social cues regarding gender -- gender roles, gender norms, gender expectations, gender discrimination, etc.. But all of those are social constructs themselves.
I don't feel that I have a gender identity that is separate from my biological gender. At the same time, I don't feel that my biological gender defines any other part of who I am, except for some basic biological functions (such as how I use the bathroom, or how I prefer to interact sexually with other people).
So if you were to ask me what my gender identity is, that's kinda like asking me what color my airplane is. I don't own a (real, full-size) airplane, so the question is...hard to answer. I can pull an arbitrary answer out of thin air -- for example, I can take a piece of white paper and fold a paper airplane, or I can speak of the last flight I was on, or my favorite model of airplane -- but it has no inherent answer.
Not saying that's the answer to your question, just throwing it out there.
But like, they're still what 'male' typically implies, so by identifying as male, which I guess I do, I'm aligning myself with a bunch of stuff I'm neither interested in nor capable of embodying.
This is immature maybe, or maybe I'm overthinking things, I don't know. I'm not transgender, I just... kind of want to opt out of the whole gender thing? And if 'gender' is something more than a social construct then that implies that I can't.
(Unfortunately, English doesn't work well for that. Hence my really wanting a non-gendered third person non-object pronoun set that can work for specific -- not just hypothetical -- people.)
I guess one way I see it is that, instead of changing my gender identity to fit societal expectations of gender roles/norms, I'm simply postulating that those expectations mean nothing.
(no offense meant)
The larger gender argument that is, not relating to anyone here in particular.
That sounds most unfun, though.
None taken, but I think you see the problems with this, with regards to transgender people? Not to mention wider discussions of gender expectations and roles. When people express views on gender, they clearly mean something.
That's good, and FWIW you're not offending me, either.
Honestly, though, I was more concerned that what I was saying might be offensive to transgender or questioning heapers present.
I have sort of a patch solution right now, but it still feels awkward.
Ah.
Feel free to send a PM at any time, if you want.
Scary Stories To Tell In The Dark were there, though.
Horror short stories are the only form of kids literature allowed to have sad endings.