The industry is exploitative. Misogyny is their bread-and-butter, and the border between the porn industry and the sex industry - with human trafficking and everything else that entails - is often pretty thin. You don't need to be a far-right moralist to be wary of going anywhere near it.
Perhaps regulating the industry would be the best plan, but underestimating the scope of the problem could do more harm than good.
Regulating the porn industry would be safer than not doing so, but regulating it requires acknowledging it exists and then doing something with this acknowledgement other than saying you want to burn it to the ground because something something women shouldn't have sex before marriage something something.
The United States, currently, is not in a place as a country where that is culturally possible, because the mean attitude on the porn industry is that no one wants to acknowledge it other than to condemn it, which is the same problem almost all of the vice industries (gambling, recreational drugs, etc.) have, except in porn it's worse because the moralists get to say that the women involved "deserve" it.
I was just having this thought process earlier today.
I mean, personally, I hate porn, and I'd like nothing more than to tear its heart out and consume it in front of its loved ones. But I know that's not going to happen because the modern world loves it too much. So I'll settle for safe working conditions for the actresses and, well, not being hella racist.
I am always immediately suspicious of anyone who claims to uncover anything shocking in the porn industry, because it quite often translates to normalizing (sometimes unintentionally, sometimes very intentionally) the mistreatment of sex workers.
I am not saying that you're doing that here, but the people who you are getting this from might be. Be cautious.
I believe that such things can, in a way, be harmful even to adults. Society is shaped by the media it produces, and media shapes society in turn. Porn is very popular, so the ideas that thrive in porn (misogynistic and often racist ideas) can be fed back into the public conscience.
i think this is true to a point, but i also think people in general resent being told the media is influencing them. The root cause is never the media - or in this case, the porn industry - it's the culture that media perpetuates. The people who are worst affected by it don't know they're being affected. Attempting to stamp it out is just going to drive it underground, because you're treating only the symptom, not the disease.
If someone says that porn is inherently bad then I stop listening to what they say about porn.
i'd be wary of doing this.
It isn't inherently harmful, but the industry as it currently exists very often is. i think there are legitimate reasons to feel that porn as it currently exists is rotten through-and-through.
What exactly do you mean by whistleblowers in the porn industry 'normalizing the mistreament of sex workers'?
It's not usually the whistleblowers themselves, its people who look at what they've found and extrapolate it to the entirety of every sex industry--which, as you stated, is big--and then decide that it's OK to call prostitutes horrible people who are damaging feminism, or that if you're a woman (trans or cis) and you're into BDSM you're a selfmisogynist and should stop.
It's the kind of David Wongian misogyny-in-feminism's guise that is especially dangerous, because of how reasonable it seems on the surface.
I'm not saying, y'know, donate all of your money to Brazzers because they're doing good work. You shouldn't, and they're probably not, but the smarter thing to do is pay attention to who you patronize (if anybody) and call out shitty companies for misogynist or racist policies--which is ideally what you should be doing already.
It's mostly just really shitty for people to make the mental leap "some porn companies are awful" --> "sex is bad in general and fetishes in particular are horrible". There is not actually anything wrong with porn that involves hitting/spanking/slapping/choking/whateverthefuck as long as the actors are being treated like human beings off-camera and the audience recognizes that works of fiction are works of fiction, and that ideas and themes within them do not translate to real life. The former falls to porn companies, and the latter is a much harder subject to tackle, and is hardly the exclusive domain of the porn industry.
I also just get the tiniest bit ticked that choking is intrinsically seen as a misogynistic fetish for reasons that I am sure your mind can puzzle together. Not that that's a primary reason, or that this is about me at all, but it is irritating.
In any case, I have to cut this conversation (at least my contribution) here. Ironically enough, because one of my boyfriends needs my attention. Later, folks.
i think this is a difficult subject, though. i don't believe it's right to condemn people for their sexual preferences, of course, but i quite strongly believe that the media can and does perpetuate harmful social attitudes.
If someone says that porn is inherently bad then I stop listening to what they say about porn.
i'd be wary of doing this.
It isn't inherently harmful, but the industry as it currently exists very often is. i think there are legitimate reasons to feel that porn as it currently exists is rotten through-and-through.
I do not have any close friends in the industry but I have a few acquaintances*--friends of friends, and I mean that legitimately--and am going to have to recommend that you reconsider that idea. *everyone I have spoken to who is in the industry is a camgirl, if that matters to you (it matters as far as the wellbeing of the worker in question does).
quick question: did your research consist of watching a Gail Dines video?
...
-sigh- it was a book excerpt.
Let me guess, she's a quack that I shouldn't be giving the time of day to.
yeeaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
she is very wonderful at stringing together arguments that start in very reasonable places and transition seamlessly into very unreasonable conclusions, usually solely via anecdotal evidence, deliberately emotive language and with maaaaybe a pinch of shoddy statistics if she's feeling defensive.
i think there are extremely valid reasons to believe that media that treats women as sex objects is always harmful in this society (i am not sure where i stand on this), and while i think there are hypothetical circumstances in which this is not the case, we live in the real world and i think it's wrong to dismiss somebody's opinions just because they make strong statements condemning it.
As for the industry itself, obviously, it's an industry, and it's massive. i shouldn't have generalized.
FWIW she is one of those people who claims that enjoying BDSM is inherently misogynistic
IIRC she thinks that holds true even if you are a gay man because you secretly want to abuse teh ladies but dont quote me on that because it might not be true and im in the middle of watching something and as such im typing this as quickly as possible because i cant pause it
I'd rather not discuss the subject at length, but yes.
I mostly tacked that anecdote onto the end of my post for effect. Incidentally, we may not actually be doing anything tonight because he is not at home, which he neglected to tell me. >_>
So I guess I'm both frustrated and not leaving, on that note.
Nah, the people I was cribbing notes off of were just porn-negative, not sex-negative or weird-sex negative.
And there was, in addition to the stuff I already mentioned, a section on poor treatment of women within the porn industry (and apparently, the max pay for a black woman in a standard scene is the same as the minimum pay for a white woman in the same thing, so it's still racist even off-camera)
As for the choking fetish, while I don't like it personally, I'm more concerned about it being done without prior consent off-camera, which is the feel I got from most of the interviews.
FWIW she is one of those people who claims that enjoying BDSM is inherently misogynistic
IIRC she thinks that holds true even if you are a gay man because you secretly want to abuse teh ladies but dont quote me on that because it might not be true and im in the middle of watching something and as such im typing this as quickly as possible because i cant pause it
Ohhhhh. Well, that's no good.
You'd think that I'd learn to recognize crackpots after that stint with Trudeau in 6th grade.
And there was, in addition to the stuff I already mentioned, a section on poor treatment of women within the porn industry (and apparently, the max pay for a black woman in a standard scene is the same as the minimum pay for a white woman in the same thing, so it's still racist even off-camera)
I wouldn't be shocked if this was true of again, a Brazzers or something like that, but the porn industry is larger than professionally produced-and-shot full-length films. Significantly larger.
As for the choking fetish, while I don't like it personally, I'm more concerned about it being done without prior consent off-camera, which is the feel I got from most of the interviews.
Out of curiosity, did she name any of these people? Even under pseudonyms?
*everyone I have spoken to who is in the industry is a camgirl, if that matters to you (it matters as far as the wellbeing of the worker in question does).
Ah, yes, that.
Honestly, I don't even consider it in the same category as the normal porn stuff. Lots more autonomy for the performers.
As for the choking fetish, while I don't like it personally, I'm more concerned about it being done without prior consent off-camera, which is the feel I got from most of the interviews.
Out of curiosity, did she name any of these people? Even under pseudonyms?
The racism bit? No. Everything else, yes.
Anyways, since it's clear that I waded into this discussion with faulty information, can we just agree that I screwed up and move on?
i remember this post on tumblr where someone said "if anyone ever mentions a prominent white cis feminist google their name + transphobia or racism" and i laughed it off as SJW bullshit
but then i tried it and you find really nasty things like a good 2/3rds of the time
As for the choking fetish, while I don't like it personally, I'm more concerned about it being done without prior consent off-camera, which is the feel I got from most of the interviews.
Out of curiosity, did she name any of these people? Even under pseudonyms?
Ah, normally I'd be willing to continue the discussion a bit longer (if only to learn from my mistakes), but it's late and I slept poorly last night so I should probably log off before my body attempts a hard shutdown.
"gonzo porn" just refers to porn that tries to put you in the scene as it were, with participants filming the acts.
Gail Dines does a very Michael Moore-esque thing where she explains how Max Hardcore (gross horrible man who makes gross horrible things) was very influential in terms of subject matter (true, in some spheres) incredibly gross (I would definitely say this is true) and was also one of the first people to go big with Gonzo porn (also very true) and uses this to imply that all gonzo porn is gross like Max Hardcore, when in actuality it was his filming techniques that become big, not the subject matter (you can look on his wikipedia page to see the sorts of things that happen in his films because i dont feel like repeating them in a public forum)
i don't think i consciously imitated anybody, but i definitely pick up characteristics from people whose posts i read often
This.
It was especially funny three years ago or so, when AU and I first started picking up each other's little quirks...because we already had pretty similar posting styles, so as they got more similar people legitimately had a hard time telling us apart! :B
Most of my emoticon use is a mirror of Naney's, although I am more conservative with it.
The first I really ever used was ^w^ although whether it was his influence or not is hard to say. I just kind of always liked it, even when I was very anti-emoticon.
My three cats are Onyx, Shaggie, and Ebony (Ebony's name is actually spelled like "Ehboniey" or something, because of cat show regulations, but I'm not gonna bother)
we also used to have another cat, Misty, but she is deceased, unfortunately.
All four of them used to be show cats, but as we sorta slowly slid down the Well-off/Fucking Poor scale, we stopped being able to afford the entrance fees, and stopped going.
I have had, in my life, two dogs (Shaun-Ti and Tyler), a hamster (Hammy), a goldfish (Wiggles), two small fish I forget the exact species of (Dot & Dorothy), two gerbils (Jeremy and Jinx, although since I bought them when I was going through my first history phase, they were "formally" named Sirs Jeremiah and Jinkerslaus), and a frog (Tad), in addition to the kitties.
We could probably put our current cat in a show, but eh, not really our scene. She's basically perfect, though, as far as those sort of things go, and very affectionate.
I'm not fond of conventional pornography at all, but I will say that it used to be a lot sleazier than it is now and it's still pretty damn sleazy, and frankly I'm pretty glad that the Internet is beginning to drive in the spikes...
Comments
Perhaps regulating the industry would be the best plan, but underestimating the scope of the problem could do more harm than good.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
It isn't inherently harmful, but the industry as it currently exists very often is. i think there are legitimate reasons to feel that porn as it currently exists is rotten through-and-through.
It's the kind of David Wongian misogyny-in-feminism's guise that is especially dangerous, because of how reasonable it seems on the surface.
I'm not saying, y'know, donate all of your money to Brazzers because they're doing good work. You shouldn't, and they're probably not, but the smarter thing to do is pay attention to who you patronize (if anybody) and call out shitty companies for misogynist or racist policies--which is ideally what you should be doing already.
It's mostly just really shitty for people to make the mental leap "some porn companies are awful" --> "sex is bad in general and fetishes in particular are horrible". There is not actually anything wrong with porn that involves hitting/spanking/slapping/choking/whateverthefuck as long as the actors are being treated like human beings off-camera and the audience recognizes that works of fiction are works of fiction, and that ideas and themes within them do not translate to real life. The former falls to porn companies, and the latter is a much harder subject to tackle, and is hardly the exclusive domain of the porn industry.
I also just get the tiniest bit ticked that choking is intrinsically seen as a misogynistic fetish for reasons that I am sure your mind can puzzle together. Not that that's a primary reason, or that this is about me at all, but it is irritating.
In any case, I have to cut this conversation (at least my contribution) here. Ironically enough, because one of my boyfriends needs my attention. Later, folks.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
i think this is a difficult subject, though. i don't believe it's right to condemn people for their sexual preferences, of course, but i quite strongly believe that the media can and does perpetuate harmful social attitudes.
*everyone I have spoken to who is in the industry is a camgirl, if that matters to you (it matters as far as the wellbeing of the worker in question does).
i think there are extremely valid reasons to believe that media that treats women as sex objects is always harmful in this society (i am not sure where i stand on this), and while i think there are hypothetical circumstances in which this is not the case, we live in the real world and i think it's wrong to dismiss somebody's opinions just because they make strong statements condemning it.
As for the industry itself, obviously, it's an industry, and it's massive. i shouldn't have generalized.
I mostly tacked that anecdote onto the end of my post for effect. Incidentally, we may not actually be doing anything tonight because he is not at home, which he neglected to tell me. >_>
So I guess I'm both frustrated and not leaving, on that note.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
I have been told I self-oppress because I am somewhat pickier with men than women.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
but that doesn't mean they automatically have no valid points to make about sexism
maybe worth considering, idk
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
edit: Nvm, thanks. I thought that was directed at me.
fair enough, i've never heard anything good about Dines
I would know, I have three of them.
we also used to have another cat, Misty, but she is deceased, unfortunately.
All four of them used to be show cats, but as we sorta slowly slid down the Well-off/Fucking Poor scale, we stopped being able to afford the entrance fees, and stopped going.
they lived long lives, but both are sadly gone now, and i have no pets