I weigh in on the issue you've all been concerned about

James Cameron's Avatar definitely counts as Content.

Thank you.

Comments

  • You are the end result of a “would you push the button” prompt where the prompt was “you have unlimited godlike powers but you appear to all and sundry to be an impetuous child” – Zero, 2022
    What about Kirk Cameron's Avatar?
  • My dreams exceed my real life
    It counts as Christtent.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    It was good for what it was, which is to say that it was an extremely visually impressive take on a very dated and hokey if reasonably inoffensive subgenre of science fiction that hasn't been in vogue since before Star Wars first came out.
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    i don't see how it can have been, initially, "Content", because it wasn't based on an existing IP

    unless James Cameron is a brand at this point, which i suppose isn't far-fetched
  • My dreams exceed my real life
    I feel like there were interesting things culture critics could have said about the movie, but nobody said them.

    Like how nerds ended up turning against the Native American analogues in favor of the Imperialist American analogues.

    But instead the usual suspects just went "ACTUALLY THE NA'VI ACTUALLY REPRESENT CAPITALIST KIND OF INDUSTRY LIKE STEVE JOBS"
  • Munch munch, chomp chomp...

    I feel like there were interesting things culture critics could have said about the movie, but nobody said them.

    Yeah that about sums up my sentiments. That and it looked gorgeous... but even that bored me halfway through.
  • the imperialist analogues had a better aesthetic so it's understandable
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    It doesn't even leave much room for a sequel or spinoffs or even a whole lot in the realm of merchandising compared to most action-adventure movies with that kind of budget. I mean, say what you will about the quality of the plotting and characterisation or the problematic implications of the "outsider goes native and becomes syncretic saviour" narrative, but this movie was a labour of love and, more than that, a love letter to an era of science fiction that isn't terribly "marketable" in this day and age, and I respect that.
  • My dreams exceed my real life
    It was pretty, but I kind of bounced off its aesthetic.

    Like, Peter Jackson's King Kong made more of an impression on me.
  • Like how nerds ended up turning against the Native American analogues in favor of the Imperialist American analogues.
    Elaborate
  • My dreams exceed my real life
    There was a lot of stuff about how awesome Evil General was and how annoying the Na'Vi are.

    Which like, I admit the Na'Vi are annoying, but Evil General was not even remotely sympathetic.
  • Like how nerds ended up turning against the Native American analogues in favor of the Imperialist American analogues.
    Elaborate
    the aliens were boring and the marines had cool power suits
  • My dreams exceed my real life
    Yes, and that.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    the imperialist analogues had a better aesthetic so it's understandable


    See Benjamin's comments on fascism.
  • It was good for what it was, which is to say that it was an extremely visually impressive take on a very dated and hokey if reasonably inoffensive subgenre of science fiction that hasn't been in vogue since before Star Wars first came out.

    reasonably inoffensive? maybe fair for it's time, but...
  • There was a lot of stuff about how awesome Evil General was and how annoying the Na'Vi are.


    Which like, I admit the Na'Vi are annoying, but Evil General was not even remotely sympathetic.

    Like how nerds ended up turning against the Native American analogues in favor of the Imperialist American analogues.
    Elaborate
    the aliens were boring and the marines had cool power suits
    I see
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    i liked it in the cinema, it was pretty, i'm not under any illusions that it was a great film otherwise

    but i was baffled and honestly kind of disturbed and upset by how people seemed to latch on to characters that, to me, just seemed purely evil with no redeeming qualities

    like, that actually kind of scared me, it was a confusing and frightening response to being shown a really shallow kind of nastiness
  • My dreams exceed my real life
    Also probably the John Ringo/Rober Heinlein contingent of military fetishist nerds.
  • My dreams exceed my real life
    Speaking of, Starship Troopers the movie is way better at criticizing american imperialism.
  • edited 2015-11-21 16:42:24
    imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    like i guess partly what bothered me was, i suppose, i got the impression part of the reason viewers turned against Jake and the Na'vi was that they were perceived as boring, or perhaps blandly "nice" in an obnoxious, hippy-ish sort of way.

    that this should be a sin so great that it caused people to root for characters who were downright monstrous was immensely troubling to me
  • edited 2015-11-21 16:48:05
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    I'm not sure that it qualifies as going into full-on "white saviour" territory—that's a special circle of Lit Hell—but let's compare it to about 90% of Tolkien-derived high fantasy, or any number of other dubious strains in speculative fiction that remain popular to this day. Sure, the racial politics of the style range from naïve to condescending to downright bizarre and offensive depending on the examples, and it is very, very retro, but all things considered, at least in this case, it's just all kind of silly.
  • For once, or maybe twice, I was in my prime.
    I think for at least some viewers, it was less that they actually liked the white military guys, and more "James Cameron, your attempt to manipulate my emotions are so ham-handed that I'm going to do exactly the opposite of what you want, just to spite you."
  • MetaFour said:

    I think for at least some viewers, it was less that they actually liked the white military guys, and more "James Cameron, your attempt to manipulate my emotions are so ham-handed that I'm going to do exactly the opposite of what you want, just to spite you."

    this was my response to the film
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    Like people who hated the elves in Tolkien, i guess.  Or i guess the vampires in Twilight, which is something i can relate to more since i felt they had some genuinely repulsive characteristics, rather than being merely bland.

    i dunno, i get that fiction is fiction, but i feel like what appeals to a person vicariously has to say something about their attitudes in general, and i see nothing that makes the idea of rooting for the villain of that movie even palatable.  He's more boring than the Na'vi, he just also happens to be a violent, racist colonial entirely driven by a profit motive.
  • If I may hijack the thread for a moment,

    Screw elves. Screw all elves that were born of Tolkien's spawn

    Tolkien's OG Elves are passable, but they still represent a sense of racial unassailability, and I can't stand that
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    i still kinda want to write a story where Tolkien-esque elves are an antagonist.

    i'm sure it's been done.  But i want to see if the qualities that Tolkien liked about them can be made to be scary.
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    i think i liked the elves in The Hobbit more than the elves in LotR
  • My dreams exceed my real life
    I like to imagine D&D elves are like Eeevee, heavily influenced by the enviroment they live and grow up in.

    This is why there are five billion elf subraces.
  • there are a billion elf subraces because they are tainted with original sin, so they'll change anything to try and save themselves

    but they can't change what they are
  • Tachyon said:

    i still kinda want to write a story where Tolkien-esque elves are an antagonist.

    i'm sure it's been done.  But i want to see if the qualities that Tolkien liked about them can be made to be scary.

    Discworld. Discworld Discworld Discworld.
  • My dreams exceed my real life
    I think that's more classical elves with a bit of Tolkien.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    If I may hijack the thread for a moment,


    Screw elves. Screw all elves that were born of Tolkien's spawn

    Tolkien's OG Elves are passable, but they still represent a sense of racial unassailability, and I can't stand that

    Kind of but not quite? Tolkien is drawing on the Norse conception of elves, which is less alien than the Celtic one—namely, hide your kids and lock your windows—but still more godlike than human. They're angelic in appearance, but at least in Norse tradition susceptible to the same temptations as men and caprices as gods. They also seem to be associated with Freyr, who is both a god of light and a fertility deity. Tolkien's a bit more Christ-y about it but as far as his work goes they're pretty low on the weird race stuff scale. Which is weird, since they're kind of the nexus of racial weirdness in a lot of later stuff.

    Incidentally, in Norse cosmology, dwarves and elves are just the same sort of entity as associated with different deities and domains: Light, sky, fire, wind versus earth, darkness, caves, minerals.
  • I found them to be a synthesis of their qualities but Pratchett seemed particularly intent on skewering the response to Tolkien's version.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    I'm a little disappointed at how much play scary Celtic elves and fairies are getting because they are seriously one of my favourite classes of mythological being and having them get played out would be lame.
  • Touch the cow. Do it now.
    Tolkien's elves are a lot less "perfect" in the Silmarillion, where they basically just cause disaster after disaster
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    Yeah, exactly. They're magic and weird and don't get old, not perfect.
  • If I may hijack the thread for a moment,


    Screw elves. Screw all elves that were born of Tolkien's spawn

    Tolkien's OG Elves are passable, but they still represent a sense of racial unassailability, and I can't stand that

    Kind of but not quite? Tolkien is drawing on the Norse conception of elves, which is less alien than the Celtic one—namely, hide your kids and lock your windows—but still more godlike than human. They're angelic in appearance, but at least in Norse tradition susceptible to the same temptations as men and caprices as gods. They also seem to be associated with Freyr, who is both a god of light and a fertility deity. Tolkien's a bit more Christ-y about it but as far as his work goes they're pretty low on the weird race stuff scale. Which is weird, since they're kind of the nexus of racial weirdness in a lot of later stuff.

    Incidentally, in Norse cosmology, dwarves and elves are just the same sort of entity as associated with different deities and domains: Light, sky, fire, wind versus earth, darkness, caves, minerals.
    Like I said, Tolkien's specific breed is better than most. I blame them for their progeny more than on their own detriments. 
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    That's fair. Modern high fantasy is not the most promising territory...
  • kill living beings

    I'm a little disappointed at how much play scary Celtic elves and fairies are getting because they are seriously one of my favourite classes of mythological being and having them get played out would be lame.

    hipsterrrrr
  • edited 2015-11-21 18:41:46
    kill living beings
    i also liked the imperialist marines, just as i like the space marines in starcraft, war hammer, and starship troopers

    with, of course, the understanding that if they were real i'd like em even less than i like the USMC

    i only have this opinion because my mom watched avatar like twenty times in the course of one month.
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    that does seem excessive

    i dunno, maybe it's just that space marines never had any inherent appeal to me, so i'm missing whatever qualities made the Avatar ones entertaining to people

    i can sympathize with Sredni here cuz fairies and (pre-Tolkien-style) elves are far and away the most interesting type of fantastic/mythological being to me and i don't want people who read my writing to think 'yawn, this shit again'

    Pratchett's elves are great, but not really what i had in mind

    relatedly i really should read more contemporary fantasy before embarking on my high fantasy epic whatever, but at this rate i'm never gonna write it since there's always more to read . . .
  • kill living beings
    they have guns, and also knives
  • Sup bitches, witches, Haters, and trolls.

    i also liked the imperialist marines, just as i like the space marines in starcraft, war hammer, and starship troopers

    with, of course, the understanding that if they were real i'd like em even less than i like the USMC

    i only have this opinion because my mom watched avatar like twenty times in the course of one month.

    so is your mom the previously-thought-mythical avatar fan?
  • Sup bitches, witches, Haters, and trolls.
    it's been said before, it's kind of amazing how such a popular movie has almost no place in the popular consciousness
  • Eragon has the worst example of elves that I can think of. At least, the worst example that still used the word 'elf'
  • kill living beings
    Calica said:

    i also liked the imperialist marines, just as i like the space marines in starcraft, war hammer, and starship troopers

    with, of course, the understanding that if they were real i'd like em even less than i like the USMC

    i only have this opinion because my mom watched avatar like twenty times in the course of one month.

    so is your mom the previously-thought-mythical avatar fan?
    Calica said:

    it's been said before, it's kind of amazing how such a popular movie has almost no place in the popular consciousness

    well, this was closer to t he release date, but yeah
  • My dreams exceed my real life
     We do not deign to acknowledge the slanderous propaganda spread by the stunted humans who call themselves dwarves. The little miners have always had a rather, shall we say, biased outlook on history and the true workings of reality. They call themselves the finest creatures to grace the worlds with bodies like that, we suppose one would have to have an active fantasy life. 

    For those graced with true vision, Elves comprise the finest race in all the worlds. We are that which other races aspire to be: Our longevity, our beauty, and our craftsmanship are all the stuff of legends. Certainly, each of these attributes can be recreated in some fashion by the lesser races, but theirs is an artifice of face and form and creation never as fine as those that come naturally to us. 

    Our lives are long and filled with happiness, for we recognize the impermanence of all things, excepting ourselves. Indeed, we do not suffer death as do the mortals. Only through violence, accident, or disease do we die at all. 

    Although we vanish from the ken of mortal knowledge after hundreds of years of existence in this plane, you may rest assured that we continue on elsewhere. Even those who perish on the battlefield do not truly die, but instead become part of the earth's cycle of growth and rebirth. Our spirits linger on, for we are intimately tied to the world and its core. Indeed, we are the integral part of that core. 

    We would turn now to other matters, for to continue on in this vein would, no doubt, lead you to believe that we are boasting of elven prowess. We do not boast. Anyone who has seen even the slightest fraction of elven ability knows the truth of what we say within these pages. 

    Yes, we are a proud race, but do we not have just cause? Are we not Elves—creatures of most wondrous might? Simply understand that we are what we are and that nothing you can do will change us—then may we become good friends. But beware: We are a complex race, and the workings of our lives will ever be a mystery to you, our dreams foreign from yours. You will never truly understand us, no matter how you try. 

    Enigmatic and powerful, elves have dominated the fantasy landscape for years. Although their civilizations and powers have always been a mystery to those who travel in the realms of fantasy, their influence is undeniably strong. Abandoned cities, lost technology, forgotten lore . . . all these things and more lie within the mystique of the elves. Their land, their culture, and their philosophy remain cryptic mysteries to those not blessed with the love of elves. 

    No longer. With The Complete Book of Elves, many of the elves' mysteries are open for perusal. But take care with the information gleaned; some secrets of the elven way of life still remain hidden—knowledge forever forsworn from non-elves. Be forewarned: The pieces of fact and fiction learned within can, if incorrectly applied, spell destruction for those who misuse this knowledge.
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