Nerd culture prefers Japanese animation to western animation

Anonus

Why is this? I get the sense that there is more creative freedom in the Japanese animation industry and thus more narrative possibilities opened...

MetaFour

The guy who wrote the essay about "the geek social fallacies" also wrote an essay about this. His conclusion was anime on the whole isn't better or more creative than Western animation, but it seems very original to Western audiences who are unfamiliar with the Japanese cliches.

One-Winged Eagle

There isn't really more creative freedom as it is that it sells to a different market.

See, what keeps Japanese animation in business isn't Ghibli movies for the whole family, or adaptions of dramas or art movies. 

No, what keeps them afloat are otaku. Otaku who like to watch things with blood, gore, sex, high school girls, giant robots, and action. So folks don't actually have the freedom to make whatever they want, it's that they have to make whatever the otaku want. They make it for them, and we just watch it if it comes by. Those folks over there don't even acknowledge foreign markets, because why would they? We don't buy their blurays and bluray box sets which are super expensive. We don't contribute.

Of course, this isn't to say that there aren't cartoons for kids. Just that those are in the minority.

lee4hmz

A lot of the Japanese kids' cartoons have never left Japan, either, except in drips and drabs. I don't think anyone's ever done a R1 release of, say, Doraemon. Before Nick started running Belle & Sebastian and the Saban World Masterpiece Theater dubs, anime for little kids was pretty much not available here.

Salix Babylonika

if nerd culture is so tolerant of anime, why is it that I, Naruto

lee4hmz

Also, the otaku thing makes it sound like hard-R action movies and grindhouse flicks here. 

Klinotaxis

MetaFour said:

His conclusion was anime on the whole isn't better or more creative than Western animation, but it seems very original to Western audiences who are unfamiliar with the Japanese cliches.

this was definitely it for me at first but now i recognize all the cliches right off and still read (manga is easier) this garbage

MetaFour

Well, I've come to the conclusion (based on thinking about music but I guess it's applicable here, too) that every medium or genre is going to have its own cliches. What you have to do is find the one with the cliches you like, or at least you can tolerate.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

There was a time when Japanese animation was something totally new for western audiences who were bored with the western clichés. I could be wrong, but I feel like western animators have fewer restrictions than before because of looser TV network policies and also the internet, and I think that, in the 1980s when anime started to get noticed in the west (I think?) the media here was either working around, or being crushed by, right-wing censorship factions, so there was not a lot of artistic freedom. But maybe I am completely off base.

I don't have the impression right now that the typical nerd likes anime just because it's Japanese, but I think that the kinds of things in animation that interest them more have a tendency to be Japanese. There is, of course, the "otaku" crowd, who like to stay within the bubble of Japanese animation and only like things involving Japanese clichés, but that is not the "average nerd" at all, I think.

Imipolex G

"blood, gore, sex, high school girls, giant robots, and action"

nohaynicklibre

When I think that there are kids in the world that have grown up not watching Doraemon I get extremely sad

lee4hmz

Miko: While American theatrical animation in the 1980s was pretty hamstrung (and yes, Nelvana released an R-rated animated movie and it tanked), TV animation here was slowly improving due to new blood at places like Disney and WB, and skilled Asian studios like TMS, Toei and Wang. From the mid-1980s into the 1990s, you could see Japanese animation tropes in a lot of otherwise American or Canadian things, since the animation was finished in Japan, Taiwan or Korea. This was at a time when anime in general wasn't widely available except in places with a large Japanese population (LA, SF, Seattle, maybe Hawaii); a few things were dubbed and put into syndication, but that was it until, oh, the early 1990s.

This was especially noticeable in DIC stuff, since they used TMS and Cuckoo's Nest quite a bit and let them co-produce.

Odradek

lee4hmz

I'm positive that sounded a whole lot better in Japanese... :lol:

Odradek

lee4hmz said:

I'm positive that sounded a whole lot better in Japanese... :lol:

You are assuming anybody doing the dub spoke Japanese. That is a big assumption for eighties anime.

lee4hmz

So, not just hamming up a cheesy line from the dub script, but translators who barely even knew the language, right?

Salix Babylonika

Translating anime simply wasn't done in the 80s. They usually just acquired the actual video of a show (often several shows), cut it up in some way or another, and scripted entirely new dialog.

lee4hmz

Oh, right, I forgot about the whole Macekre thing. I know Voltron did that.

Section42L

There's also the awkwardice of trying to write a line that would fit a lip-sync intended for an entirely different language to consider.

It took anime dubbers a long time to get competent at doing that.

Obā-san

Odradek said:

Cyber City Oedo 808 is dope

glennmagusharvey

Well, for what it's worth, Voltron is considered a success, be it because of or despite its wholesale new "translation".  Yes, there are other factors, yadda yadda yadda...

Anyway...back to the OP topic.

1. "Animation Age Ghetto" - There are, by portion, more anime series that cater to tastes and interests of teens and adults, than there are western animation series that do the same.  (This includes both "superficial" things like blood, gore, and sex, as well as deeper themes such as older romance, philosophical musings, and such.)
1'. Furthermore, among series that cater to teens and adults, (I've gotten a feeling that) a greater portion of them are dramas, or at least not slapstick comedies.

2. Ease of Access - I'm not sure how true this is, but at least from my experience as a person living in the United States, it's much easier to find Totally Legal sources of anime than it is to find Totally Legal sources of western shows.

3a. Mainstreamness vs. "Hipsterism", AND/OR
3b. Exploration
Whether it is that you want to distance yourself from what are perceived to be mainstream tastes, or whether you just want to find something new for fun, that's another drive toward anime.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

lee4hmz said:

Miko: While American theatrical animation in the 1980s was pretty hamstrung (and yes, Nelvana released an R-rated animated movie and it tanked), TV animation here was slowly improving due to new blood at places like Disney and WB, and skilled Asian studios like TMS, Toei and Wang. From the mid-1980s into the 1990s, you could see Japanese animation tropes in a lot of otherwise American or Canadian things, since the animation was finished in Japan, Taiwan or Korea. This was at a time when anime in general wasn't widely available except in places with a large Japanese population (LA, SF, Seattle, maybe Hawaii); a few things were dubbed and put into syndication, but that was it until, oh, the early 1990s.

This was especially noticeable in DIC stuff, since they used TMS and Cuckoo's Nest quite a bit and let them co-produce.

hmm, that makes sense. :o

Miss Miko Mayonegg

high school girls

I've learned to live with it, but I do wish people could fap to things that are not prisoners of a public education system and gender-related expectations and countless other expectations that make life very difficult for all but the minority objects of desire for people who fap to high school girls. [bla bla more stuff] sorry

glennmagusharvey

I would like it if schoolgirl outfits were not EVERYFREAKINGWHERE in anime.

Aliroz

I hate schoolgirl outfits almost as much as I hate maid outfits.  They are both awful.

Hexartes

Anime seems like it has quite a bit more variety than American animation. You don't find many serious shows aimed at anyone other than children here.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

^^ Maid outfits are great.

Salix Babylonika

Kexruct said:

Anime seems like it has quite a bit more variety than American animation. You don't find many serious shows aimed at anyone other than children here.

They exist, but are niche.

Most of the examples I can think of are either older or are made to also appeal to children.

Also it's important to remember that the anime market as a whole is mostly composed of niche things. Even something that was relatively popular like Kill la Kill will never even come close to touching the new season of Pokemon. Which is what most truly popular anime--even in its home country--is like.

That said, whether or not something is niche has nothing to do with its quality. Some niche stuff is awful.

Hexartes

Well yeah, I know it's niche stuff, but it's plentiful. I can't honestly think of a single western animated series meant to appeal to adults. Hmmm... maybe some of the animated DC stuff. 

Section42L

Do The Boondocks and The Venture Brothers count?

Morven

The Simpsons, to pick the world's most obvious example?

Hexartes

Hrrrrm. Maybe. The Boondocks is almost entirely a comedy, and I think the Venture Brothers is too (although I've heard it veers into heavy territory.)

I'm talking more about primarily serious series, in case that wasn't clear.

Section42L

They are primarily comedies, for sure, but they do delve into rather serious themes that the dudebro animated comedies generally avoid.

The Simpsons when it was good, did that too.

Hexartes

Hence the almost and the parenthetical. I think that while both have a serious core, their primary focus is still comedy. It's entirely valid, don't get me wrong, but I don't think there are that many adult-aimed shows made in the west that are not on some level of the comedy genre.

Salix Babylonika

There simply do not seem to be as many young serious adult and and adult- targeted cartoons in the United States. Chalk it up to either cultural differences or pure coincidence I suppose. *shrug*

though, I believe RWBY is wholly serious, and also young adult targeted, but it's also not a television program, it's a webseries (it's also heavily anime-leaning).

Miss Miko Mayonegg

Boondocks is anime

/le troll

Klinotaxis

no i hate the cliches in anime too. i have settled on "guy is explicitly presented as normal and through no action of his own gets thrown into plot w/tits" as my least favorite cliche of all time i hate it hate it haaaaate

Section42L

Kexruct said:

Hence the almost and the parenthetical. I think that while both have a serious core, their primary focus is still comedy. It's entirely valid, don't get me wrong, but I don't think there are that many adult-aimed shows made in the west that are not on some level of the comedy genre.

That is quite true.

It would be great to see Toonami commission one at some point. They seem like the place that's most likely to be able to successfully pull it off.

glennmagusharvey

RWBY is quite clearly playing to part of the audience base that anime has.

As for western animation shows for teens and/or adults, there's the standard "primetime cartoons" like The Simpsons, Family Guy, King of the Hill (which is a little more serious), etc. -- though those are, as pointed out, primarily comedy.  As are the random smattering of things offered by Adult Swim -- a number of which are just gross-out comedies anyway.

It seems the Avatar series are going the way of trying to appeal to older audiences as well, though as pointed out they are also meant to appeal to children.

I do remember, many years ago, reading a piece about animation and older audiences -- there's this one image from a series whose name I've forgotten, but which -- if I actually saw that same image again I would recognize it.  I can't remember whether it was an anime series or just one that looked animesque.

Salix Babylonika

I don't think Toonami is really in a position where they can commission stuff anymore.

Them getting same-day air rights to Space Dandy was shocking enough. It doesn't help that Toonami's fanbase is like half spoiled manchildren who demand that they bring back Dragonball Z and cut everything else.

glennmagusharvey

Klinotaxis said:

no i hate the cliches in anime too. i have settled on "guy is explicitly presented as normal and through no action of his own gets thrown into plot w/tits" as my least favorite cliche of all time i hate it hate it haaaaate

Thank you; I see it's not just me who's gotten tired of "normal guy runs across weird unusual girl with magical powers, stuff happens" as a premise, to the point of having an almost knee-jerk decrease of interest when I read it.

Aliroz

glennmagusharvey said:

Klinotaxis said:

no i hate the cliches in anime too. i have settled on "guy is explicitly presented as normal and through no action of his own gets thrown into plot w/tits" as my least favorite cliche of all time i hate it hate it haaaaate

Thank you; I see it's not just me who's gotten tired of "normal guy runs across weird unusual girl with magical powers, stuff happens" as a premise, to the point of having an almost knee-jerk decrease of interest when I read it.

Same here, it's part of why I couldn't get into Chobits.

Tachyon

i like that Studio Ghibli still uses traditional animation instead of CGI, that's cool.

As for western animated series aimed at adults, there are loads.  Besides those mentioned already, South Park springs to mind as the most prominent example.  But yes, the western market is dominated by comedy, definitely, and I think there's also still a sense that western animated comedies aimed at adults are inherently subversive due to the perception that cartoons are for kids.

As far as the teen demographic goes, there's Adventure Time and Regular Show, and also online shows like Bravest Warriors and as was mentioned already RWBY.

Klinotaxis

imo bakshi

Tachyon

never seen any of his movies... are they good?

Anonus

Cartoon Hangover in general is aimed at the teen demographic

Odradek

Tachyon said:

never seen any of his movies... are they good?

Here's how it goes

Fritz The Cat Good

Heavy Traffic Haven't seen it

Coonskin at least interesting

Wizards Memorable shit, but shit nonetheless

The Lord Of The Rings Shit

American Pop Haven't seen it

Hey Good Lookin' Haven't seen it

Fire and Ice Enjoyable mindless shlock. Sexist too.

Cool World Shit, but it's maybe not Bakshi's fault this time

Last Days of Coney Island Coming out this year.

Obā-san

MetaFour

I've heard that Macek (sp?) was totes a fan of the series he was so loosely adapting. He was just forced to take liberties because he could only license part of the show, so he had to do nonsense like slap episodes from different shows together and try to pass it off as one story.

Also, the lip flaps don't always match the original Japanese dialog either. They tend to animate before recording the voices.

Sredni Vashtar

Yon Assassin said:

I'm not sure if European and North American animation animation can be considered together, at the end of the day. The Francophone countries in particular are a hotbed of weird. But yes, this is a nice example.

Odradek said:

Tachyon said:

never seen any of his movies... are they good?

Here's how it goes

Fritz The Cat Good

Heavy Traffic Haven't seen it

Coonskin at least interesting

Wizards Memorable shit, but shit nonetheless

The Lord Of The Rings Shit

American Pop Haven't seen it

Hey Good Lookin' Haven't seen it

Fire and Ice Enjoyable mindless shlock. Sexist too.

Cool World Shit, but it's maybe not Bakshi's fault this time

Last Days of Coney Island Coming out this year.

I need to see more of Bakshi's work, I think.

...and I honestly didn't dislike Cool World. It was kind of dumb and full of plot holes, but some aspects of it were interesting and I liked the weirder animated moments.

Sredni Vashtar

MetaFour said:

I've heard that Macek (sp?) was totes a fan of the series he was so loosely adapting. He was just forced to take liberties because he could only license part of the show, so he had to do nonsense like slap episodes from different shows together and try to pass it off as one story.

Also, the lip flaps don't always match the original Japanese dialog either. They tend to animate before recording the voices.

Macek voiced the Catbus in the Streamline dub of My Neighbour Totoro. I cannot really dislike him.