The United States is bad at being the British Empire

edited 2014-03-15 15:33:11 in Talk

So, Russia has an evil authoritarian leader who's going to annex Crimea from Ukraine, and that's like Hitler.

Except one of the three leaders of the good liberal Ukrainian government the plucky democratic protestors installed actually believes in Nazism.

So whether we're going to refight the Crimean War with a different English-speaking government comes down to whose use of Godwin's Law is more convincing?

At least when the British Empire made weakening Russia's geopolitical position a key part of its foreign policy, it was honest enough to call it a game.

Comments

  • kill living beings
    we could ask what some jews think http://maidantranslations.com/2014/03/05/open-letter-of-ukrainian-jews-to-russian-federation-president-vladimir-putin/

    or we could acknowledge that in a conflict fundamentally about nationalisms there are going to be racist shitbags everywhere, such as the "people's governor" of donetsk

    or we could make crimean war comparisons as if this is more like the context of open warfare and the ottoman collapse and religious warfare than the more recent and obviously relevant pattern of russian sponsorship of semi-popular independence movements in transnistria, south ossetia, and abkhazia that result from/in high populations of russian ethnicity in states controlled by russian military units with little open warfare resistance from anyone due to the way war works nowadays

    personally i'm rooting for the khanate

    lol at "[I] have jewish friends"
  • "Perhaps you got Ukraine confused with Russia, where Jewish organizations have noticed growth in anti-Semitic tendencies last year."

    ooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh snap
  • ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    I just want everything to end up okay for the people in Ukraine and Russia.  No war, no big tensions, just everything turns out alright.
  • my impression of the ukraine tensions are:

    - yanukovych was an asshole
    - the new government in kiev contains assholes
    - the crimean separatist movement contains assholes
    - the russian government contains assholes
    - the american government contains assholes

    basically everything is terrible and i feel sorry for the ukrainian people who, one way or another, are probably going to have just a different bunch of assholes taking power (tymoschenko for instance isnt exactly amazing), instead of some actual decent people who arent nationalist dickwads/suckups to the intensely corrupt russian govt. but then again, it seems to be the way of revolutions these days (cf. egypt)

    there probably isnt going to be a war. it would be too bad economically.
  • i feel bad about the tatars
  • "It is a matter of grave importance that Fairy tales should be respected.... Whosoever alters them to suit his own opinions, whatever they are, is guilty, to our thinking, of an act of presumption, and appropriates to himself what does not belong to him." -- Charles Dickens

    or we could make crimean war comparisons as if this is more like the context of open warfare and the ottoman collapse and religious warfare than the more recent and obviously relevant pattern of russian sponsorship of semi-popular independence movements in transnistria, south ossetia, and abkhazia that result from/in high populations of russian ethnicity in states controlled by russian military units with little open warfare resistance from anyone due to the way war works nowadays

    Oh, I know that Putin's Russia uses intelligence agents and hypocritically democratic rhetoric wherever the breakup of the Soviet Unio has left Russian minorities. And of course the context is different than the open warfare between Russia and the English when the Otooman Empire was breaking up. But ever since Ukraine became a sovereign state, the US State Department has been trying to turn it against Russia via NATO, etc. As if it's wrong for Russia to have a warm water port.
  • More people have said that and been killed than there are thorium decay products.
    Why is there so much nazism in eastern Europe?
  • It's rather crazy. And complicated.

    The story from the West is that a small but brave country decided to overthrow its government of crooks and move away from Russia, and big evil Russia decided to enter in force and grab some territory with no justification whatsoever.

    The story from Russia is that manipulative West deliberately staged the color revolution, as it has a history of doing. Russia did not react to that, even though it could, but had to heroically move in when it's people are threatened by neo-Nazis.

    I suspect that noone was really innocent innthat one - that is, that the unrest in Ukraine was definitely staged by the West and that there are some very suspicious characters in power now, but that is not a good justification for invasion. However, we certainly have better justification for meddling in Ukraine than USA ever had for meddling in Afghanistan, Laos, Iraq, Lybia, the list does on, so I suspect that a great part of international outcry has to do with the fact that it's Russia doing something bad, not that something bad is done. Bunch of hypocrites.

    Thing is, I can't even think of a good realpolitik justification for what we are doing, as we are simply not strong enough to get away with it. We have lost all the allies over it, definitely lost larger Ukraine, and are about to face sanctions that would hurt. Very worried personally about whether I'd be able to travel, or to maintain the lifestyle I am used to.

    Putin got hugely popular, though. I guess that was the point.
  • edited 2014-03-16 00:08:16
    More people have said that and been killed than there are thorium decay products.
    Yeah... America has a history of basically genocide in Latin America, and they don't teach us that in high school history.
  • Miko said:

    Yeah... America has a history of basically genocide in Latin America, and they don't teach us that in high school history.

    man I got all(two) kinds of taught about jacob arbenz in high school, where the fruit companies decided they didn't like a dude because he was letting farmers in guatemala own their own farms and grow things other than bananas to be sold in the us

    also I remember when yanukovych's name was coming up during the recent outrest and thinking "wasn't that the dude who poisoned his political opponent with dioxin"
  • edited 2014-03-16 00:40:52
    kill living beings
    Also the Russian Empire and Soviet Union have similar history if you're going to go back the same few decades. Which they teach nowadays, hopefully.

    rather than like, foundations of geopolitics
  • Miko said:

    Why is there so much nazism in eastern Europe?

    My guess would be that we were bitten by Hitler
  • More people have said that and been killed than there are thorium decay products.
    Fuck that guy. >:/
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    i've seen a lot of posts comparing Russia's actions here to the US in Iraq, with the implication that Obama is somehow a hypocrite... did everyone forget that it was Bush who invaded Iraq?

    i think everyone can agree that war is undesirable, whatever happens.  This shouldn't be an East vs West issue imo.
  • More people have said that and been killed than there are thorium decay products.
    All it takes is two sides cheering "World War Three! World War Three!" to make it happen. :o
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    A revival of the Cold War is a far more probable outcome.  Nobody wants World War III.

    i'm concerned about the possibility of increased violence within Ukraine, though.  i don't know how likely that is.
  • More people have said that and been killed than there are thorium decay products.
    Why can't everyone just chill out and smoke some marijuana! >:/ I mean jeez.
  • edited 2014-03-16 15:26:45
    ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    Miko said:

    Why can't everyone just chill out and smoke some marijuana! >:/ I mean jeez.

    I don't think that's a good long-term solution to anything. I think it only would work in the same way that it would work if everyone decided to go to sleep.


  • More people have said that and been killed than there are thorium decay products.
    So... wonderfully. :D
  • kill living beings
    Afghanistan is known for its opium growth, man. Stoners ain't help shit
  • Beholder said:

    Miko said:

    Why is there so much nazism in eastern Europe?

    My guess would be that we were bitten by Hitler
    Dammit, it's not enough that Hitler's a time-travelling robot.  Now he's a vampire too?  Fuck.
  • kill living beings
    wouldn't a werewolf mmake more sense
  • edited 2014-04-17 23:19:09
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    It's generally understood that those fliers weren't being handed out by the "official" Donetsk separatists, and might have been the work of Ukrainian rightists... but that doesn't change the fact that Yanukovych told his security guys that the protests were the work of rich foreign Jews. And then proceeded to call all of the protesters Nazis. Because I guess he thinks they're Lehi fanboys or something.

    And Putin's spokesman (or was it Putin himself?) used the term "New Russia" to describe eastern Ukraine. If you are familiar with the origin of the expression, that's really fucking scary.
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