ITT: I hate western civilization.

One-Winged Eagle

Alright, let me lay it all out here right now.

I have a deep and abiding prejudice against half the world. I am jealous of your successes.

If I see something used to describe Asia is made by someone not Asian (i.e; Wade-Giles Romanization), I will harbor bad blood against it and put it on my agenda to put it down and encourage as many people as possible to not use it. 

In my head, I lump entire societies together, to become the Other. The Other that is bad, wrong, mistaken, and misleads others. You are Them so that I and we can be Us.

Here's how I feel: I speak your language. I watch your TV. I read your books. I listen to your music. And I dearly wish I wasn't.

I wish I was speaking our languages. I wish I was watching our TV. Reading our books. Listening to our music, without anything that your cultures have introduced into our consciousness.

I wish we didn't have to be like you to be successful. I wish we could be like us.

I resent the entire western world, and I express it by insults. I laugh at your misfortunes and quietly wish for things to get worse. 

But there are still a lot of things that I love that you made. My friends are counted among your number, and for them I hope for a better life, a better place to live.

I would like to think that western civilization is responsible for all the world's ills, to make myself feel better.

But it's not true and it doesn't work.

Imipolex G

Salix Babylonika

There is really no acceptable, serious answer to a sentiment like this, and I will not attempt to offer one.

Sredni Vashtar

^^^ The European colonial powers and the United States during its imperial phase left indelible marks on the places and cultures that they used in their quest for supremacy. Cultural exchange should be mutual, not a one-way street of introduced fashions and norms. I think that if most people saw this situation from both sides, they would understand this and try to be more considerate. As it stands, all that we can really do to make up for how badly our ancestors screwed up is to try not to repeat their mistakes.

I listen and observe. That is my contribution. It is small and weak, but it is my contribution.

Salix Babylonika

Sredni Vashtar said:

^^^ The European colonial powers and the United States during its imperial phase left indelible marks on the places and cultures that they used in their quest for supremacy. Cultural exchange should be mutual, not a one-way street of introduced fashions and norms. I think that if most people saw this situation from both sides, they would understand this and try to be more considerate. As it stands, all that we can really do to make up for how badly our ancestors screwed up is to try not to repeat their mistakes.

I listen and observe. That is my contribution. It is small and weak, but it is my contribution.

You see I think this makes a lot of sense but there seems to be an increasing school of thought that says people of different geocultural reasons simply cannot understand each other and that any attempt at cultural exchange is just appropriation.

So I don't know how to feel about these things anymore. I've only ever even been out of the country once so my input doesn't matter anyway.

Sredni Vashtar

That school of thought sounds suspiciously like xenophobia masking itself as political correctness.

One-Winged Eagle

Sredni: Well, it's something at least.

Queen: That school of thought makes some sense, but I am not completely convinced. I can't see both sides either.

Salix Babylonika

Sredni Vashtar said:

That school of thought sounds suspiciously like xenophobia masking itself as political correctness.

The (failed) US attempts at introducing traditional western democracy into Iraq and Afghanistan are often cited as examples of this school of thought being correct.

I am not saying I subscribe to it, but I am saying that there are a lot of people who seem to genuinely think that the best solution is to just divvy the world into quarters where we can all live alone away from anything "different".

I dunno, I was raised thinking that diversity is something to be celebrated and that exchange of cultural ideas is a great and beautiful thing, but a lot of people--most of them, I have noticed, from what is usually called "the third world" in America--seem to disagree.

And I think that's scary, because either everything I've ever known is wrong, or a fair bit of the world is made up of horrible people, neither is particularly pleasant an idea.

Aliroz

I, too, resent the dominance of western civilization. I don't want one culture or language to dominate any more than I want one flower to crowd out the others. That makes a farm, or a plantation, not a rainforest, garden, or wetland.

I despise invasive species. That is not exchange at all! Exchange should be two-way, with syncretism. If we have culture A and culture B; we can add something from B to some areas inhabited by A, creating a syncretism culture C without necessarily changing the culture A, which still exists. And we can add some A to some areas inhabited by B, and make a syncretistic culture D.

Now we have A, B, C, and D. We have grafted and exchanged without destroying the originals. There are such things as hybrid peonies, and they exist without destroying the parent types. A dazzling array of color.

Sredni Vashtar

^^ I don't think that they're necessarily horrible people, just frightened, confused and unable to process being immediately confronted all at once with something that they do not understand. Making something an "Other" makes it easier to process, and trying to assimilate novelty all the time is frustrating.

The reason why our ostensible introduction of "democracy" into the Middle East failed is not because such peoples cannot be democratic, but because how we brought about this change was unilateral bullying without proper context, sensible transition, or attempts at understanding the situation from an Afghan/Iraqi/Kurdish perspective.

One-Winged Eagle

I'll have to agree; we are kind of getting a bum deal here. Modernization is pretty much the exact same thing as westernization. Nobody is seriously looking at us and thinking; "Man those people are awesome, we should be more like them."

An to be fair, we don't think that either. We think "Those people have all the power. We need to be like them to get some power of our own. We need to copy them to survive."

A thought arises; "Is manufacturing everything in the world mean that you have access to all the cultures in the world?"

The answer arises; "No, it doesn't. Go fuck yourself."

Salix Babylonika

Sredni Vashtar said:

^^ I don't think that they're necessarily horrible people, just frightened, confused and unable to process being immediately confronted all at once with something that they do not understand. Making something an "Other" makes it easier to process, and trying to assimilate novelty all the time is frustrating.

I do not genuinely think they are horrible people, but you see what I am getting at.

These are again not necessarily things I think but more things I have heard from elsewhere.

Sredni Vashtar said:

The reason why our ostensible introduction of "democracy" into the Middle East failed is not because such peoples cannot be democratic, but because how we brought about this change was unilateral bullying without proper context, sensible transition, or attempts at understanding the situation from an Afghan/Iraqi/Kurdish perspective.

I find that sensible but the argument that "such peoples cannot be democratic" has been made and is unfortunately taken seriously sometimes.

It's the same line of thought that leads to "there are no gays in Russia".

I realize I am not making a lot of sense. I'm frustrated and the world is dumb. I apologize for being confusing.

Beholder

Lucky you. At least you are proud of your own culture.

I freaking hate the way my country currently is and wish something could force it to be more like Western ones.

Salix Babylonika

kingCrackers said:

A thought arises; "Is manufacturing everything in the world mean that you have access to all the cultures in the world?"

The answer arises; "No, it doesn't. Go fuck yourself."

I don't think anyone actually thinks this, it's an excuse.

Personally I'd be much happier if culture traded back and forth between countries much more often and manufacturing much less often. The former is a lot more meaningful.

Of course I am neither an economist, a sociologist, nor capable of making economic decisions on behalf of my nation.

So the question becomes, other than "being understanding", what can the average citizen do?

And the answer is "not a lot".

Beholder

I wish my country was a proper part of Western civilization. Every time I read about some gresat historic events of the past, they sometimes happen close to my country, but never quite there. I am sad that we've just missed Hellenistic world, being oh so close. I am sad that we are stuck with the weirdest possible take on Christianity that makes us isolationist. I am sad that we never adoupted the values of democracy, individualism and liberalism even in theory, even as an aspirations to strive to. I am sad that we are an extremely homophobic country and nothing can force us to be otherwise, nor can a popular sentiment demanding change be born here.

What the hay

One-Winged Eagle

Well what were things like in the old days?

If I were free from familial obligations I'd likely go apprentice myself to an expert Daoist.

Tachyon

kingCrackers said:

I'll have to agree; we are kind of getting a bum deal here. Modernization is pretty much the exact same thing as westernization. Nobody is seriously looking at us and thinking; "Man those people are awesome, we should be more like them."

i hope this isn't too insulting to point out, but, well, there are some Westerners who are genuinely interested in Asian culture (in a non-fetishistic way), like some of the original beatniks, but when the subject was brought up before you said you prefer 'lumping all of those into the blanket term of "hippies" because I think it's funnier that way'

i can understand your frustration, but you can't have it both ways

(obviously i don't expect you to be grateful for Westerners who borrow parts of your culture without respect or understanding)

One-Winged Eagle

Sure, good folks who want to learn and fully commit to live in a different way; more power to them, I'm sure they exist.

I am also sure that there are hippos who paint houses, but I ain't seen any.

Klinotaxis

Beholder said:

I wish my country was a proper part of Western civilization. Every time I read about some gresat historic events of the past, they sometimes happen close to my country, but never quite there. I am sad that we've just missed Hellenistic world, being oh so close. I am sad that we are stuck with the weirdest possible take on Christianity that makes us isolationist. I am sad that we never adoupted the values of democracy, individualism and liberalism even in theory, even as an aspirations to strive to. I am sad that we are an extremely homophobic country and nothing can force us to be otherwise, nor can a popular sentiment demanding change be born here.

What the hay

russian history definitely isn't as popular but it still rules. i mean you were ruled by mongols for a couple hundred years and one of them big hero guys, Nevsky, he worked for them, yeah? 's a cool thing. stuff like that

your alphabet and religion are both pretty greeck. if you're thinking more like, socrates and those fuckers, then what the fuck ever, russia had way more contact with persians and arabs and the chinese and those peeps did a lot more cool shite than the shitswillers in medieval england

kingCrackers said:

If I see something used to describe Asia is made by someone not Asian (i.e; Wade-Giles Romanization), I will harbor bad blood against it and put it on my agenda to put it down and encourage as many people as possible to not use it.

whaddya think of Joseph Needham

kingCrackers said:

Nobody is seriously looking at us and thinking; "Man those people are awesome, we should be more like them."

it happens occasionally. barefoot doctors were a big thing behind the WHO's kazakhstan declaration thingamajigger

One-Winged Eagle

Joseph Needham said nice things about us, that is neat. Got a name and everything. Good job, guy.

I'll look up more stuff about him later.

Tachyon

kingCrackers said:

Sure, good folks who want to learn and fully commit to live in a different way; more power to them, I'm sure they exist.

I am also sure that there are hippos who paint houses, but I ain't seen any.

>_<

alright, fine

i can honestly say i've never met a Westerner who took a close interest in an Asian culture, setting aside orientalizers who only care for superficial aspects

i can also say that just about every foreign visitor to England or Wales that i've met has spoken very good English, while i am fluent in only my own language as is the norm in Britain

so i guess i don't know what i'm talking about, forget it

hatred for the Western world upsets me, much as i'm aware that my country brought it on herself, as did several other Western countries

Justice4243

I'm very interested in Asian religion... though this is related to a general interest in religion. 

Admittedly, Shintoism gets a bit of a focus despite the fact that it's only practiced in one country, however it's the only Asian country I've been to and material on it is much easier to find here then say... Tengrism.

Not to say I don't have a bunch of books on Buddhism or Daoism... I must have like... four different translations of the Tao Te Ching....

 

One-Winged Eagle

Needham saved books when we were busy burning them. Good job, guy.

Got used by communists. Bad job, guy.

Klinotaxis

the only options for western interlopers in china at that time seem to have been 'dumb lefty' or 'fascism sounds cool'; so it goes

have you ever loped? i have. intraloped

Aliroz

I agree that Russian history is severely underrated.

Sredni Vashtar

Shinto and the religion of the Ainu are fascinating to me. For some reason I really connect with the notion of gods tied to places and objects, and of things that are not quite gods that exist interstitially between this world and some other. It feels very personal and real-yet-unreal to me, and I really like that.

Beholder

Makes me wonder what is the respectful way of expression fascination/interest in someone else's culture if you do not intend to be fully immersed in it.

One-Winged Eagle

Animism is fascinating.

I think you need to either go surface (buy paintings, take traditional medicine, listen to stories), or you go all the way (shave your head, grow a beard, take apprenticeship, marry a local, change your name, move there, etcetera).

Because anything in the middle is diluted and washed and people are going to going to listen to you and become diluted and washed themselves.

But then, that's me.

Justice4243

kingCrackers said:

Animism is fascinating.

I think you need to either go surface (buy paintings, take traditional medicine, listen to stories), or you go all the way (shave your head, grow a beard, take apprenticeship, marry a local, change your name, move there, etcetera).

Because anything in the middle is diluted and washed and people are going to going to listen to you and become diluted and washed themselves.

But then, that's me.

I see, so you're more bugged by the sort of, "I want to incorporate this into my life, but I also want to pick and chose what's convenient" mentality? 

Makes sense.

Beholder

Well,  most people are doing this in one way or other. I mean, even the people who, say, subscribe to the religion that is dominant in the region are usually not practising just every single tenet, but only pick what they can fit in their lives. The same with traditions - even the people belonging to the group with which a given tradition is associated might follow it, ignore it or modify it in the way that fits their life. You don't have to be foreigner to be doing it.

Beholder

(chuckles) And now I have no idea how, and whether I should at all, to mention it to a friend that I've been fascinated with some aspects of her culture lately :)

Tachyon

what culture, out of curiosity?

@kingCrackers just wondered, but what would be your opinion of a Westerner who believes in a predominantly Asian religion (Buddhism, say) and practices it to the best of their ability, but otherwise does not wish to turn their back on their Western friends, traditions and customs?

Beholder

@Tachyon
Answered in PM

Tachyon

thanks

Klinotaxis

Beholder said:

Well,  most people are doing this in one way or other. I mean, even the people who, say, subscribe to the religion that is dominant in the region are usually not practising just every single tenet, but only pick what they can fit in their lives. The same with traditions - even the people belonging to the group with which a given tradition is associated might follow it, ignore it or modify it in the way that fits their life. You don't have to be foreigner to be doing it.

yeah there's no kind of purity. imperial influence is one thing, but there's not gonna be a true canon

One-Winged Eagle

Beholder: It's all I ask, honestly. Like you could do all the things that I mentioned, but still hold on to some goddamn dumb ideas. Commitment, earnestness, dedication, as much as you can muster (and I know that most can muster a lot). That's what matters. It's just that all the really drastic acts serve as a sort of shorthand to show dedication and all that.

Klinotaxis: Sure there'll never be a true canon. A thousand paths and all that. But...I guess what I can say that it's ours to mix, ours to change. Because it's ours and we have some kind of background and culture about it. We understand it, and it occupies the same space we do. Other people don't have our position, so they shouldn't. 

Some religions are weird, though. Like some are pretty much just; "OKAY EVERYBODY COME GET A PIECE SO YOU CAN GROW IT BACK HOME"

Klinotaxis

i guess that's what i was thinking of w/'impreial' but that's too specific hu