Dark Elves

Alduin

why are dark elves dumb

Alduin

i mean dark elves are like that one kid who wants to play outside and they're all like "mom i wanna build a giant robot powered by the remnant of a god like the other kids" and mommy Azura is all like "no sweetie you're just going to have to stay inside"

and the Tribunal are those kids who are like "FUCK NO" and they manage to sneak outside and steal a god's divinity for themselves

Hexartes

Dark elves aren't dumb; they're just too weighed down by thoughts of how odd their Mesopotjewishpanese culture is to consider things like "Maybe it might not be the best idea to irritate this mostly good but legendarily vengeful goddess?"

Tachyon

they're dumb because they are invariably based on the dark elves from D&D and bear no resemblance either to the Moriquendi or to mythical elves or drow

sheer unoriginality

Hexartes

Jabberwock said:

they're dumb because they are invariably based on the dark elves from D&D and bear no resemblance either to the Moriquendi or to mythical elves or drow

sheer unoriginality

I quite like the take they did. It felt nice and familiar-ish without being cliche.

Tachyon

if you mean in the Elder Scrolls specifically, they have developed a considerable lore of their own for them, that much is true

Alduin

Cutxerk said:

Dark elves aren't dumb; they're just too weighed down by thoughts of how odd their Mesopotjewishpanese culture is to consider things like "Maybe it might not be the best idea to irritate this mostly good but legendarily vengeful goddess?"

Azura is not "mostly good". None of the Daedra are. You must remember that Azura, like all the Daedra, only really cares about herself.

Tachyon

the application of ethical standards to the daedra is probably pointless but Azura's interests seem to align more comfortably with those of human morality than most daedra

Hexartes

Cutxerk said:

Dark elves aren't dumb; they're just too weighed down by thoughts of how odd their Mesopotjewishpanese culture is to consider things like "Maybe it might not be the best idea to irritate this mostly good but legendarily vengeful goddess?"

Azura is not "mostly good". None of the Daedra are. You must remember that Azura, like all the Daedra, only really cares about herself.

• not randomly and pointlessly evil constitutes good for most Daedra
• Azura's most positive quality is how much she cares about people. Possibly self serving to an extent, as it sometimes seems like it's just for her followers, but it's not always just them. For example, she didn't want the Tribunal getting godlike powers because, well, look how that turned out.

Alduin

"Hey guys, I totally just caused the deaths of everyone in Vivec City and the deaths of everyone who died in Red Year because I wanted petty revenge on Vivec. I'm such a good guy, right?"

Tachyon

seems par for the course for a vengeful deity

Hexartes

Acererak said:

"Hey guys, I totally just caused the deaths of everyone in Vivec City and the deaths of everyone who died in Red Year because I wanted petty revenge on Vivec. I'm such a good guy, right?"

...?

Baar Dau was sent by Sheogorath, and only remained suspended because Vivec was basically forcing people to worship him or else have it crash.

Alduin

This is even mentioned by Sotha Sil:

The old gods are cruel and arbitrary, and distant from the hopes and fears of mer.

^ That's if you believe Temple propaganda. Temple propaganda also says that the ALMSIVI achieved godhood by being really cool, and we know that's bunk.

Hexartes

Also dood it's Elder Scrolls lore, no need to be condescending.

Alduin

I wasn't aware that I was being condescending, sorry if I came off as that.

Imipolex G

elves elves elves

yet no one cares about dwarves

Hexartes

Acererak said:

This is even mentioned by Sotha Sil:

The old gods are cruel and arbitrary, and distant from the hopes and fears of mer.

^ That's if you believe Temple propaganda. Temple propaganda also says that the ALMSIVI achieved godhood by being really cool, and we know that's bunk.

There's no reason for them to lie about Sheogorath sending the rock. It's not like there's anything else to go off of.

Hexartes

Melusina said:

elves elves elves

yet no one cares about dwarves

TES has dwarves, but they're just a different variety of elf.

Tachyon

it amuses me how closely arguments about the elder scrolls tend to resemble serious political debates

Hexartes

Actually, there are two accounts according to the UESP:

Baar Dau[1] (also known as the Ministry of Truth[2] or Lie Rock[3]) was a celestial rock which hovered above the city of Vivec. According to legend, it was flung from the Void (by either Sheogorath[1] or its own malevolence,[3] depending on the story)

Obā-san

Jabberwock said:

it amuses me how closely arguments about the elder scrolls tend to resemble serious political debates

Hexartes

Baar Dau[1] (also known as the Ministry of Truth[2] or Lie Rock[3]) was a celestial rock which hovered above the city of Vivec. According to legend, it was flung from the Void (by either Sheogorath[1] or its own malevolence,[3] depending on the story) but was prevented from crashing into the city by the god Vivec. Vivec allowed it to remain hovering above the High Fane so that if the people of the city ever ceased to love him, the rock would fall and destroy them.[3] Baar Dau was hollowed out by the Tribunal Temple and became the Ministry of Truth, where the Temple would imprison dissident priests and attempt to reform them.[2] The high security prison was accessible only through levitation, and was directed by a Grand Inquisitor. The main areas were the Hall of Processing and the Prison Keep. Temple pilgrims offered levitation potions at the Shrine of Daring, which was dedicated to Vivec stopping the moon from destroying the city.[2]

Early in the Fourth Era, after the disappearance of Vivec, the magic keeping Baar Dau afloat began to weaken. Two Dunmer, Sul and Vuhon, created an ingenium, a soul-powered device which supported the rock.[4] It was created by making a pact with Clavicus Vile, who had a penchant for souls. Hundreds of captured souls were needed to run the machine, but eventually living people were used. Only the people with the strongest souls were sacrificed. Ilzheven, Sul's love, was sacrificed by Vuhon, and the ingenium was destroyed when Sul attempted to rescue her. In 4E 5, without anything holding it up, Baar Dau continued its ancient fall, returning to the momentum it had before being stopped. This obliterated the city of Vivec, leaving a crater which would become Scathing Bay. In turn, the impact created tsunamis which ravaged mainland Morrowind and caused Red Mountain to erupt, devastating Vvardenfell.[4] The event effectively ended the Tribunal Temple and the mainstream worship of the Tribunal as gods.[5]

I'm honestly not seeing any culpability on Azura's part here, unless you count her indirect effect of  destroying the Heart of Lorkhan, but that wasn't just petty revenge. 

Alduin

 unless you count her indirect effect of  destroying the Heart of Lorkhan, but that wasn't just petty revenge.

 That was totally what I meant.

A case might be made for the Tribunal, too, but I think that she's more motivated by her personal grudge against the Tribunal than for any higher moral reason.

Hexartes

 unless you count her indirect effect of  destroying the Heart of Lorkhan, but that wasn't just petty revenge.

 That was totally what I meant.

Isn't destroying an artifact that powerful and dangerous sort of objectively the right thing to do? I mean, it's not Azura's fault that Vivec is basically holding all of Morrowind at gunpoint in case they stop loving him.

A case might be made for the Tribunal, too, but I think that she's more motivated by her personal grudge against the Tribunal than for any higher moral reason.

Do you even have her guidance in Tribunal? From where I stand it looks like it was all Almalexia's doing and the Neravarine killed her because she was dangerous, crazy, and powerful. Again, these are the faults of Almalexia and Vivec, not Azura. I'm failing to see any culpability on her part.

Alduin

Azura hates all of the false gods, Dagoth Ur included. It's true that destroying the Heart was probably the only thing to do to save all of Tamriel, but in this case I think it was more motivated by her own hatred of the Tribunal than any altruistic desire to save Morrowind.

The Heart of Lorkhan was one of a lot of things keeping the Mundus stable. By destroying it, the Nerevarine inadvertently weakened the "reality" of Mundus. Azura, being present at the moment of Creation, probably knows this.

Hexartes

Azura hates all of the false gods, Dagoth Ur included. It's true that destroying the Heart was probably the only thing to do to save all of Tamriel, but in this case I think it was more motivated by her own hatred of the Tribunal than any altruistic desire to save Morrowind.

It's self serving, but also the right thing to do. That's not evil or selfish, just pragmatic. How many times has she done anything just out of revenge, aside from *possibly* blackening the Chimer, but let's be real here, as far as vengeance goes that's pretty reasonable.

The Heart of Lorkhan was one of a lot of things keeping the Mundus stable. By destroying it, the Nerevarine inadvertently weakened the "reality" of Mundus. Azura, being present at the moment of Creation, probably knows this.

I don't see how this changes the fact that it needed to be destroyed, though. Moreover, other than getting rid of the Tribunal (also a very good thing for the rest of Tamriel) I'm not seeing how this benefits her.

Alduin

other than getting rid of the Tribunal (also a very good thing for the rest of Tamriel) 

Say what you will about their means, but the Tribunal brought peace and relative stability to the hostile political atmosphere of Morrowind. The Tribunal also gave the people of Morrowind charity and free education. So you see, the Tribunal can't be pegged as "evil" in the same way as Azura can't be pegged as "good".

Alduin

Aaaand now I'm thinking of Azura pegging Vivec.

Previous Calica

Jabberwock said:

it amuses me how closely arguments about the elder scrolls tend to resemble serious political debates

yeah I've never played an elder scrolls game but I have to appreciate their worldbuilding just for how much ridiculous bullshit debates people get about them

Hexartes

I'd say the Tribunal is actively malicious too often to even be considered ambiguous.

Fossilmaiden

Thing about the Tribunal is that by the time you meet them, two of them are stark raving mad, and the other is... really helpful. Well, unless you stab him in the face.