If Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris lived in the Elder Scrolls universe

Alduin

they'd probably worship Daedra.

Or be Psijics.

Odradek

Tachyon

seems like it'd be hard to be a Dawkins/Harris style atheist in a world where the gods have a direct and observable effect upon reality on a daily basis

Alduin

Only the Daedra (and the Tribunal, but that was two centuries ago), though.

Tachyon

you pray at a shrine, you get a blessing and are instantly cured of any diseases you've contracted

that's a direct and measurable effect

Previous Calica

doesn't elder scrolls have a heroic figure who is literally said to have used the game's editing tools?

Beholder

Exactly, a measurable effect. Elder Scroll gods are not really the kind of beings one has to take a leap of faith to believe in. So atheists shouldn't have problems with them.

Yarrun XIX

Tachyon said:

you pray at a shrine, you get a blessing and are instantly cured of any diseases you've contracted

that's a direct and measurable effect

Basically.

It's why I never put any stock into the 'Only Eight Gods' thing. Talos gives a blessing just like every god.

Viani

Apparently if you play a High Elf and pray at a Shrine of Talos doesn't do anything.

I think Talos hates elves, or Talos' blessing doesn't work on high elves so that's why they think he's not a god.

Hexartes

Divinity in TES is weird.

I love the world building but I prefer the mundane stuff. The gods get a little bit too complicated for my taste.

Misery

whos sam harris

Hexartes

Norman Bates said:

whos sam harris

Patron saint of fedoratheists.

Bee

Tachyon said:

seems like it'd be hard to be a Dawkins/Harris style atheist in a world where the gods have a direct and observable effect upon reality on a daily basis

Not daily.  They do a lot of faffing about.

Previous Calica

Norman Bates said:

whos sam harris

Dawkins without the biology, I think.

Mr. Darcy

Bee said:

Not daily.  They do a lot of faffing about.

And couldn't having daily effects on reality make them easier to disbelieve in than a sufficient number of random miracles? I mean if occasionalism is true, people could easily believe that fire rather than God is the cause of burning, just because God is buring stuff all the time in a rational pattern.

Alduin

Tachyon said:

you pray at a shrine, you get a blessing and are instantly cured of any diseases you've contracted

that's a direct and measurable effect

Except that there are cure disease spells.

spinor said:

doesn't elder scrolls have a heroic figure who is literally said to have used the game's editing tools?

It's a lot more complex than that.

Viani said:

Apparently if you play a High Elf and pray at a Shrine of Talos doesn't do anything.

I think Talos hates elves, or Talos' blessing doesn't work on high elves so that's why they think he's not a god.

For Talos so hated the Elves that He sent a giant mecha to Fuck Their Shit Up, that whoever believes in Him is Probably Not An Elf.

Alduin

Yarrun XIX said:

Tachyon said:

you pray at a shrine, you get a blessing and are instantly cured of any diseases you've contracted

that's a direct and measurable effect

Basically.

It's why I never put any stock into the 'Only Eight Gods' thing. Talos gives a blessing just like every god.

You are correct. The main quest of Oblivion and a cameo in Morrowind make it very clear that Talos is real.

Salix Babylonika

I have to imagine that atheism in such a universe would revolve around less a disbelief in the gods and more a disbelief in their divinity.

The difference between "Jesus didn't exist" and "Jesus wasn't the son of god", in more relatable terms.

Bee

Most of the Elder Scrolls gods don't really give a rat's ass about divinity in the first place.

Alduin

Talos does, though.

Beholder

Heh, he is the one to tell <sacrasm>

Anyway, divinity in TES really has more to do with being sufficiently powerful than with any big concepts

Bee

That's true.  They treat it more as a physical characteristic than a virtue.

Hexartes

Mojave Music said:

I have to imagine that atheism in such a universe would revolve around less a disbelief in the gods and more a disbelief in their divinity.

The difference between "Jesus didn't exist" and "Jesus wasn't the son of god", in more relatable terms.

When you're dealing with things as obvious powerful and reality warping as TES gods, actual divinity is merely a semantic thing.

Odradek

Richard Dawkins: Respected biologist and scientist. However sometimes he
thinks he can talk about philosophical issues while simultaneously being
totally ignorant and dismissive of the philosophic dialog that he's talking
about. When he is sticking to science or even just atheism people don't have a
problem with him generally.

Christopher Hitchens: Honestly I don't know that much about him, he did
basically advocate killing Islamic people though after 911, and acted like
religion was the only possible cause of violent terrorism.

Dan Dennett: Not so much hated, but a lot of people think he sticks to
behaviorism / reductionism to an absurd degree. Pretty much the last true
behaviorist in professional philosophy. Despite this he's extremely popular
with lay people who are science minded and a lot of people who know nothing
about philosophy assume he's obviously right.

Bill Mayer: Nothing to do with philosophy really but he's super annoying
and pretty much an idiot. Also I don't know how you can look at him and not
want to punch his stupid face. Like Proud_Bum pointed out Lawrence Krauss would
have been way better so I'll do him instead.

Lawrence Krauss: Like Dawkins he wants to talk about philosophic issues
without understanding any counterpoints that actual philosophers raise.
Dismisses all of philosophy as pointless at the same time. Presumably he can do
physics well but he needs to shut up about metaphysics and philosophy (or
actually read a book on them first).

Sam Harris: Writes pop philosophy books using terrible circular reasoning
and ignoring any objections. Is absurdly sure of himself, regarding the moral
landscape when someone asked what the best objection he heard to the ideas he
said "There hasn't been any". Considering the scope of what he was
claiming and the incredibly small amount of arguments he used to claim it this
is just insane.

The biggest reason people hate them though is a lot of people view them as
the public intellectuals of our time due to their popularity. So they spread a
lot of bad philosophy into the general public.

Tachyon

sounds accurate

Salix Babylonika

Kexruct said:

Mojave Music said:

I have to imagine that atheism in such a universe would revolve around less a disbelief in the gods and more a disbelief in their divinity.

The difference between "Jesus didn't exist" and "Jesus wasn't the son of god", in more relatable terms.

When you're dealing with things as obvious powerful and reality warping as TES gods, actual divinity is merely a semantic thing.

I'm sure it would still matter to some people, provided there are people in The Elder Scrolls Universe with time to philosophize, it's been a while since I played Morrowind and longer since I played Oblivion (not a typo).

Bee

I get the feeling Harris would try and redefine divinity out of spite specifically so that the gods wouldn't qualify.  His efforts would probably end with a smiting.

Dawkins is a douche with an axe to grind, but at least pragmatic enough to go "yeah this is a thing" and view them as overpowered politicians (which they kinda are).  Of course, seeing how magic is just another branch of science in a setting like that, he'd probably also be keeping his ear to the ground on running theories about the source code the gods are hacking, if not outright moonlighting as a mage.

Alduin

That's why I said he'd make a good Psijic. The Psijics believe that the Daedric Princes are just spurned Aldmeri ancestors who achieved divinity through prominence in the mortal world.

Plus, the snobby Altmer mage is an archetype that suits him well.