"relijinz nuvr harmd any1" "ho nah roomumba de Krewsaydz?"

Viani

hay guize i may not lyk owr C I2I wit dem Humayruz Mohra wershiprz but brangen de crewsadz up lyk dey need 2 B responzibl 4 dat iz lyk tellin all Germanz dat dey r responzxible 4 da holokost or dat all high elvz dat they R responsibl 4 da Aldmeri Dumbinin murdrin da Blehdz and da emprur

we az a Dwemer sosiety kan juj Hermaruz mura worshiprs for wat dey did now and not wat dey did hundrid yrrs agooooooooooooo

k

Hexartes

One thing I don't like about TES's world building: it paints entire races as evil far too often.

Viani

wur dere good urcs n goblinz 2? I rmmbr hi elvz wrnt pri10shious azzholes either

all falmr Rnt evul right? there was dat 1 good 1?

Alduin

One thing I don't like about TES's world building: it paints entire races as evil far too often.

Uh...what?

If anything, it goes out of its way to avoid painting an entire race as "good" or "evil".

Salix Babylonika

Hexartes

Acererak said:

One thing I don't like about TES's world building: it paints entire races as evil far too often.

Uh...what?

If anything, it goes out of its way to avoid painting an entire race as "good" or "evil".

The Dwemer, the Ayeleids, the Sload.

Fossilmaiden

So basically, you're complaining that certain races in the setting took slaves?

Hexartes

No, but the Dwemer and the Ayeleids are presented almost universally as bad and the Sload are universally described as lazy and lethargic.

Alduin

Yagrum Bagarn is a Dwemer and he is portrayed as anything but "evil". The Dwemer did shitty things to the Falmer, but the Falmer are hardly innocent victims. Remember the Night of Tears? And the Dwemer created the Numidium, which led to the establishment of the Empire and the Miracle of Peace.

The Ayleids took slaves, so? The Dunmer did the same thing, and I'd hardly call them "evil". Were they evil because they worshipped Daedra? The Dunmer do that too. Was Umaril evil because he was the villain in Knights of the Nine? You could easily distort the famous Nord hero Ysmir Wulfharth into a similar figure.

The thing about the Sload is that we know so little of them, and the only notable member was an evil necromancer. Just because one of them is evil doesn't mean all of them are. That's like saying that "all Altmer are evil because I've only met Mankar Camoran and the King of Worms".

Hexartes

In game materials refers to other Sload, actually.

And you've basically described my problem. They can just be the victims of poor retellings of history, but I don't think the series always does the best job in showing that's the point.

Alduin

They can just be the victims of poor retellings of history, but I don't think the series always does the best job in showing that's the point.

What? Differing depictions of gods and heroes have been a series-wide theme. 

For example, the Heart of Lorkhan was depicted as a force of evil in Morrowind and then Lorkhan (as "Shor") was shown in a positive light in Skyrim.

Hexartes

The Dwemer and Ayeleids have kind of gotten the short end of that stick.

And it kind of bothers me that it's nigh impossible to play a character with a consistent ideology over the course of the series.

Alduin

The Dwemer and Ayeleids have kind of gotten the short end of that stick.

Aside from the aforementioned Yagrum Bagarn, the Dwemer also invented a device that could read Elder Scrolls without the gradual blindness associated with the act. If that isn't good I don't know what that is.

Also, I repeat:

They can just be the victims of poor retellings of history

They can be both victims of biased retellings in history and assholes. Ysmir burned hundreds of Alessian worshippers alive and still manages to be the victim of a heavily biased Dunmer retelling.

And it kind of bothers me that it's nigh impossible to play a character with a consistent ideology over the course of the series.

:? What do you mean?

Hexartes

Acererak said:

Also, I repeat:

They can just be the victims of poor retellings of history

They can be both victims of biased retellings in history and assholes. Ysmir burned hundreds of Alessian worshippers alive and still manages to be the victim of a heavily biased Dunmer retelling.

And it kind of bothers me that it's nigh impossible to play a character with a consistent ideology over the course of the series.

:? What do you mean?

Well, when you put it that way it just sort of seems like EVERY god and EVERY hero is evil.

And by consistent ideology I mean that there's rarely the option to do something that would be heroic by the previous game's standards.

Alduin

Well, when you put it that way it just sort of seems like EVERY god and EVERY hero is evil.

What I'm saying that labeling characters like Wulfharth, Umaril, and the Dwemer as "good" or "evil" is oversimplifying things. Just like in real life, no-one quite fits into "good" or "evil". Saying that "Umaril is evil because of slavery" is like saying that "The USA is evil because of the Iraq War". It ignores a lot of factors and is generally a poor way of describing people.

Of course, there are exceptions. Molag Bal. Mannimarco. The Wolf Queen Potema. Jagar Tharn. But those exceptions are few and far between.

And by consistent ideology I mean that there's rarely the option to do something that would be heroic by the previous game's standards.

What? In Skyrim, you can act just fine by Oblivion's standards. One depiction even has you being sent by Akatosh.

Hexartes

That's precisely my problem. It is oversimplifying to call them good or evil, but it often feels like the games do that anyway.

Alduin

but it often feels like the games do that anyway.

I think that's kind of the point.

The games are about showing a particular culture's view on a particular individual, divine or not. In Oblivion, we learn that Cyrodiil sees the Dragon God as a benevolent protector: in Skyrim, he is seen as an all-devourer and an end of days.

Hexartes

The games themselves don't make this entirely clear, though. The Akatosh thing was one of the better examples of this, but it was still barely explained in game. You shouldn't have to read all of the books to understand that theme.

Hexartes

And to be fair, it's a lot better as far as the gods are concerned because that's just sort of how gods are.

Alduin

I'll respond to your post shortly, but I just want to make a side note:

Were they evil because they worshipped Daedra? The Dunmer do that too.

It's also worth mentioning that the Dunmer worship Mephala, the Goddess of Sex and Murder, as one of the "good" Daedra. I suppose that is why female Dunmer are often stereotyped as promiscuous. 

Viani

gods are like the apex predators of the world. They do what they want and the trophic level predators are all like "bawww fuck u man"

Alduin

Viani said:

gods are like the apex predators of the world. They do what they want and the trophic level predators are all like "bawww fuck u man"

Yeah, and then a golden dragon kicks their asses.

RocketRunner

Never did no harm,
Never did no harm,
Never did no harm!

It's DARE!
It's coming up,
It's coming up,
It's coming up,
It's coming up,
It's DARE!

Hexartes

RocketRunner said:

Never did no harm,
Never did no harm,
Never did no harm!

It's DARE!
It's coming up,
It's coming up,
It's coming up,
It's coming up,
It's DARE!

Yeah, basically.

Alduin

Daedra Are Really Excellent?

Viani

SPEAKING OF WHICH

withe the nbew format
 DROW ARE STILL ALL CHAOTIC-EVIL.


The argument of "How does a Chaotic Evil society exist" buzzes in my head once again

Klinotaxis

cannot even read

Odradek

The Witch of Izalith did nothing wrong