general roguelike and roguelike-like thread

Salix Babylonika

Made this because I guess Deathonabun wanted one I think.

also because I just downloaded Tales of Maj'Eyal.

Imipolex G

Salix Babylonika

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Imipolex G

It's a Like Like.

Tanya

You can hit that dislike button, or you can hit this like like button.

"Oh noes my shield"

Bunny

Yes, I did want one indeed! I figured it would be better than a Stone Soup Specific thread!

Bunny

Man, magic characters seem to always have an easier time in roguelikes

I dun care for that too much, i like melee characters or magic knight types more

Salix Babylonika

if you happen to have $10, you should pre-order Rogue Legacy. It's a hybridized roguelike/castlevania.

Bunny

while you're at it, go support the kickstarter for chasm

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/discordgames/chasm

it's also a roguelike/castlevania

Salix Babylonika

I kinda like Legacy better because it's heavier on the Roguelike side of things. 

Also Chasm reached their funding goal a few days ago I think.

Bunny

Mojave Music said:

I kinda like Legacy better because it's heavier on the Roguelike side of things. 

Also Chasm reached their funding goal a few days ago I think.

...I disagree. If anything, the fact that your characters start out stronger as you play and that you can spend money to passively upgrade new characters takes away from the whole roguelike thing quite a bit. Whereas with Chasm, when you have hardcore mode on, once you die, that's it. Back to the beginning, learn from your mistake.

...That being said, holy shit Rogue Legacy looks awesome. I think I'm gonna spend some money today.

Salix Babylonika

Well, it's the idea of an incremental roguelike as opposed to a static one. The latter are generally more common, but the former has become more and more popular in recent years, especially with hybrid games like The Binding of Isaac and such.

And Chasm doesn't really have any roguelike elements at all unless you engage Hardcore Mode, which is obviously wholly optional.

Bunny

Well, maybe it's just me, but I feel like one of the core design tenants of the Roguelike is that you have to rely on your own player skill in order to progress. Dying a ton doesn't increase your avatar's strength, it increases your knowledge of the game (or, in the case of more action-y roguelikes, your twitch skills). Which is entirely different than what this game does. It actually makes your character stronger every time you die and come back. Which is completely different form something along the lines of Binding of Isaac, mind you; Isaac unlocks more options, but the only starting upgrade you'll ever get is the D6 for Isaac.

And frankly, I'm just operating under the assumption that you have Hardcore Mode on for Chasm, given that it's the roguelike mode that Chasm has. TOME and Dredmor aren't any less of roguelikes just because their hardcore modes are optional.

glennmagusharvey

If not for the fact that I deleted it from my computer because it was just an absolutely incredible timesink, I would still be playing Spelunky.

I really love how it's a very quick platforming action game that has a place for high-speed reflexes and quick decisions, and it is built on learning skills rather than memorization because the caves are never the same.  And the whole thing lasts only up to about an hour if you really do all the sidequests.  (At least, as of version 0.99.9.)

Salix Babylonika

Deathonabun said:

Well, maybe it's just me, but I feel like one of the core design tenants of the Roguelike is that you have to rely on your own player skill in order to progress.

I'd say that's more a design philosophy than anything. There are plenty of non-roguelikes that operate on similar principles.

glennmagusharvey said:

If not for the fact that I deleted it from my computer because it was just an absolutely incredible timesink, I would still be playing Spelunky.

I really love how it's a very quick platforming action game that has a place for high-speed reflexes and quick decisions, and it is built on learning skills rather than memorization because the caves are never the same.  And the whole thing lasts only up to about an hour if you really do all the sidequests.  (At least, as of version 0.99.9.)

the XBLA version is better, IMO.

Bunny

Well certainly it's not specific to Roguelikes, but it's very much a philosophy that a large number of Roguelikes follow. The only Roguelike I can think of that doesn't follow it is Dredmor. Roguelikes have elements that prevent you from just grinding up avatar strength. Food clocks tend to keep you running down the dungeon, and in some cases enemies will just plain stop spawning on a level if you stay there too long. It's very much a Roguelike thing to do; limit your character's strength so that you have to rely on your own strength to get through.

glennmagusharvey

^^ I haven't played it, and I hear it has hilarious multiplayer opportunities (including unintentional PvP >:D).  But I don't have an XBox, and they changed the music.  And I doubt you can drop one block onto spikes (as you can before version 1.0).

Salix Babylonika

Deathonabun said:

Well certainly it's not specific to Roguelikes, but it's very much a philosophy that a large number of Roguelikes follow. 

Yes but that doesn't necessarily mean that they all should.

Frankly, I think that high difficulty is often oversold as an always-positive element of game design. It really depends on the game, and while I'd agree that some roguelikes would simply be boring if they weren't as difficult as they are, there are others that I feel would benefit from having incremental between-session progress as opposed to static between-session progress.

I think DCSS is an example of this actually. There are a number of really interesting races and classes, but in practical terms, only a few (and even fewer specific combinations) are even remotely viable without either having mastered the game in its totality or being incredibly lucky, and relying on the latter is generally seen as an element of bad game design. I feel that sacrificing some of the "traditional" roguelike difficulty for a more diverse gaming experience would make the game more interesting in general, in that particular game's case, anyway.

glennmagusharvey said:

^^ I haven't played it, and I hear it has hilarious multiplayer opportunities (including unintentional PvP >:D).  But I don't have an XBox, and they changed the music.  And I doubt you can drop one block onto spikes (as you can before version 1.0).

The music in the XBLA version is significantly better actually. So is the art.

These are both Unpopular Opinions^TM apparently, but idk.

glennmagusharvey

I can see the art being better; the original has a pixelated style that some people don't like.

But the new music is just meh, rather than melodically interesting the way the old tracks are.

Bunny

First off, I'd like to point out that player skill vs avatar skill isn't a strict indicator of high difficulty. Easy games can have inflexible avatar strength, and super difficult games can allow between session progress. What it does effect is your ability to make the game easier as you play it; related to difficulty, but certainly not all encompassing.

Secondly, while you may or may not be right about high difficulty being far too important in the eyes of developers, I'm strictly arguing that Chasm is ever so slightly more roguelike-eque than Rogue Legacy, nothing more, nothing less. Hell, if we were simply talking about which game looks better, I would honestly say Rogue Legacy looks more fun to me.

Salix Babylonika

we're not really arguing then, I guess.

I'll be picking up Legacy as soon as I have money. Chasm I'm less sure about. Given to pick only two, I'd rather get Risk of Rain.

Bunny

Given to pick only two, I'd go for Rogue Legacy and Chasm.

Though ideally, I'll pick up all three, just because I love roguelikes and roguelikelikes too much.

glennmagusharvey

I've got Desktop Dungeons downloaded somewhere and I still haven't touched that.

I am hesitant to get into stuff other than Nethack that's anything like Nethack because that might just confuse what I know of Nethack.

Yarrun XIX

You know what you should do?

You should try DungeonCrawl Stone Soup.

The only rougelike with playable octopi.

Salix Babylonika

Nethack is really unlike anything we're discussing at all.

Despite being the most well known roguelike, it's not the most typical one. 

I'd also argue it's kind of overrated, but then we're getting into opinions.

Yarrun said:

The only rougelike with playable octopi.

I'm almost positive that this is actually untrue but I can't remember what game has octopus-men.

glennmagusharvey

Well, by games similar to Nethack I mean Hack, Rogue, and stuff of that sort.

Bunny

Desktop Dungeons is probably better described as a randomly generated puzzle game than a roguelike.

...But hell, I guess Roguelikes are kind of like that anyway! Desktop Dungeons is just a little moreso.

And personally, I find DCSS to be the easiest to get into of the "classic" roguelikes. The only items that can be cursed are equipment and nothing can be blessed, skill training is simple and makes a ton of sense, and though it's rather difficult, there are certain combinations that have a fairly easy time. Nothing is too overly complex, either, and not too much information is hidden from the player.

Salix Babylonika

DCSS is probably one of the simplest, certainly.

Stuff like NetHack relies entirely too much on having a (oftentimes not entirely logical) reaction prepared for more or less any action the player can take, and just generally being obtuse.

Because of this, it's hard to get into, and significantly harder to actually finish. 

Bunny

Some of the Nethack stuff is fairly logical, and I find that to be pretty cool. Stuff like, if you're a female and you polymorph into a cockatrice, well of course you can lay eggs! And because they're cockatrice eggs, they instantly petrify anything you hit with them! And stuff like, if you polymorph and use a scroll of genocide on your natural species, you'll instantly die if you turn back, because your species was magically retconned, duh.

And then there's stuff like Elbereth, which I never would have guessed. And stuff that's makes sense, but still kind of a dick move, like petrify being an instant kill. Or even worse, the fact that being blind means you feel everything you walk over, so walking over a cockatrice corpse is instant death.

...All in all, I never cared enough for all of Nethack's crazy bullshit to really get into it.

Salix Babylonika

Hence, "generally being obtuse".

glennmagusharvey

Not to mention that, if you're female, polymorph into a cockatrice, lay eggs, collect them, and use them as stoning grenades, you get luck penalties for throwing your own eggs at things.

Salix Babylonika

at this point Nethack exists more as a subculture than a game.

(the same is true of Dwarf Fortress, which is similarly unintuitive and generally new player-repellent)

glennmagusharvey

I only got into Nethack because a friend of mine was playing it.  Which is a bit odd considering he was playing the Slash'Em variant while I've stuck with conventional Nethack, and he plays using the isometric Vulture's Eye display format while I prefer the portability of ASCII graphics (which incidentally also preserve the original form of some of the jokes, such as the cockatoo).

FWIW when I play Nethack I use the alt.org server.  This lets me play using any computer that has telnet capabilities.  At a school I used to go to, this meant I could use school computers to play it.

There was a short period of time when I was wasting a few hours a day on Nethack.  Then it got old because I'd inevitably end up screwing myself over after two to eight hours of each playthrough, despite having full access to the spoilers.  Even when you know how all the mechanics work, the game is a very intricate exercise in uncertainty management.

I'll check out DCSS at some point.

Fossilmaiden

The obvious solution is to play Elona and become a Fairy Pianist.

Yarrun XIX

Oh, god, Elona. The memories are coming back.

glennmagusharvey

> fairy pianist

wait what

Fossilmaiden

It's a fairy who plays piano. It's self-explanatory really.

Bunny

More roguelikelikes!

This one is aiming for a mixture of RTS and Roguelike! Though if you ask me, the battle system seems more like the ATB system in Final Fantasy, but still.

Bunny

This just looks amazing.

Salix Babylonika

Salix Babylonika

it's Borderlands mixed with a metroidvania basically.

Yarrun XIX

Deathonabun said:

This just looks amazing.

$3? That's ridiculous!

It is going. On. The list.

Yarrun XIX

Because I have poor impulse control, the game didn't even make it to the list. I now own it. And to pay for my sins, I will review it for all of you.

Right now, the most annoying thing is that you can only move one square at a time. That is, you have to click on a square adjacent to the character. It's not too bad when you're adventuring, but it makes backtracking really, really slow.

Yarrun XIX

The proliferation of stationary enemies on the first floor is helpful for the early player, especially since they tend to be the more powerful enemies. It allows the player to easily avoid stronger enemies until they find better gear

Salix Babylonika

Rogue Legacy released their public demo today. I think it's the same as the press build that's been circulating for awhile.

also y'all should grab that MoonRift game, it's free in its current state.

Salix Babylonika

my Paranautical Activity code arrived today. Impressions are incoming.

Salix Babylonika

first impressions

1. why is this game so hard
2. aaaaaaaaagh why is this game so hard
3. OH SHIT DANMAKU WHALE
4. WHAT DO YOU MEAN I CAN KILL MYSELF WITH THE ROCKET LAUNCHER

so suffice it to say I'm loving the game.

Bunny

Oh, Mo

I think I'm gonna have to get that game

Yarrun XIX

Mo' said:

first impressions

1. why is this game so hard
2. aaaaaaaaagh why is this game so hard

I didn't even get to the Danmaku Whale.

Yarrun XIX

Okay, so update on Crayon Chronicles:

There's an examine mode and a constant-travel command that aren't immediately visible. You have to find out via the instructions that 99% of people never read. While I wish that this was more visible, this does solve two of my biggest problems with this game (slowness and having no idea what the special items do)

Yarrun XIX

Oh, and you can't change your own skin color, hairstyle or other aspects of your appearance. You can only customize those of your friends.

As a guy who likes to customize his PCs, that's a sore spot for me.