Privilege discussion 2.0 (read the OP)
...wherein A8 and the Corporal (me!) continue a long debate we had a few months ago. This is a friendly discussion.
THAT MEANS IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT'S BEING DISCUSSED HERE, LEAVE. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING VALID TO ADD, GOODBYE. DON'T SHITPOST IN THIS THREAD.
Anyway,
Nerds and Male Privilege (definitely worth a read!) I want to tell you a story.
A few years ago, I was dating a girl who was decidedly not nerd curious. She tolerated my geeky interests with a certain bemused air but definitely didn’t participate in ‘em… not even setting foot inside a comic store on new comic day. She’d wait outside until I was done… which could be a while, since I was friends with several of the staff.
She came in the store exactly once, after I’d explained that no, it’s a pretty friendly place… well lit, spacious, organized and with helpful – and clearly identified – staff members who were willing to bend over backwards to make sure their customers were satisfied.
She was in there for less than 4 minutes before one mouth-breathing troglodyte began alternately staring at her boobs – evidently hoping that x-ray vision could develop spontaneously – and berating her for daring to comment on the skimpy nature of the costumes – in this case, Lady Death and Witchblade. She fled the premises, never to return.
When both the manager and I explained to him in no uncertain terms as to what he did wrong he shrugged his shoulders. “Hey, I was just trying to help you guys! She couldn’t understand that chicks can be tough and sexy! Not my fault she’s a chauvinist,” he said.
And that was when I shot him, your honor.
So with that example in mind, let’s talk about a subject I’ve touched on before: Male Privilege and how it applies to geeks and – more importantly – geek girls.
MALE PRIVILEGE: WHAT IS IT, EXACTLY?
I don’t think I’m breaking any news or blowing minds when I point out that geek culture as a whole is predominantly male. Not to say that women aren’t making huge inroads in science fiction/fantasy fandom, gaming, anime and comics… but it’s still a very male culture. As such, it caters to the predominantly male audience that makes it up. This, in turn leads to the phenomenon known as male privilege: the idea that men – most often straight, white men – as a whole, get certain privileges and status because of their gender.
(Obvious disclaimer: I’m a straight white man.)
In geek culture, this manifests in a number of ways. The most obvious is in the portrayal of female characters in comics, video games and movies. Batman: Arkham City provides an excellent example.
The women are all about sex, sex, sexy sextimes. With maybe a little villainy thrown in for flavor. They may be characters, but they’re also sexual objects to be consumed.
I will pause now for the traditional arguments from my readers: these characters are all femme fatales in the comics, all of the characters in the Arkham games are over-the-top, the men are just as exaggerated/sexualized/objectified as the women. Got all of that out of your systems? Good.
Because that reaction is exactly what I’m talking about.
Y’see, one of the issues of male privilege as it applies to fandom is the instinctive defensive reaction to any criticism that maybe, just maybe, shit’s a little fucked up, yo. Nobody wants to acknowledge that a one-sided (and one-dimensional) portrayal of women is the dominant paradigm in gaming; the vast majority of female characters are sexual objects. If a girl wants to see herself represented in video games, she better get used to the idea of being the prize at the bottom of the cereal box. If she wants to see herself as a main character, then it’s time to get ready for a parade of candyfloss costumes where nipple slips are only prevented by violating the laws of physics. The number of games with competent female protagonists who wear more than the Victoria’s Secret Angels are few and far between.
The idea that perhaps the way women are portrayed in fandom is aleetle sexist is regularly met with denials, justifications and outright dismissal of the issue. So regularly, in fact, that there’s a Bingo card covering the most common responses. Part of the notion of male privilege in fandom is that nothing is wrong with fandom and that suggestions that it might benefit from some diversity is treated as a threat.
But what is that threat, exactly?
In this case, the threat is that – ultimately – fandom won’t cater to guys almost to exclusion… that gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women might start having a say in the way that games, comics, etc. will be created in the future. The strawmen that are regularly trotted out – that men are objectified as well, that it’s a convention of the genre, that women actually have more privileges than guys – are a distraction from the real issue: that the Privileged are worried that they won’t be as privileged in the near future if this threat isn’t stomped out. Hence the usual reactions: derailment, minimization and ultimately dismissing the topic all together.
As much as my nerdy brethren wish that more girls were of the geeky persuasion, it’s a little understandable why women might be a little reticent. It’s hard to feel valued or fully included when a very vocal group insists that your input is irrelevant, misguided and ultimately unwelcome. It’s small wonder why geekdom – for all of it’s self-proclaimed enlightened attitudes towards outsiders and outcasts – stil retains the odor of the guy’s locker room.
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Comments
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
honestly I think Justice said what I wanted to say here better than I did.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
Also while I agree with the majority of Corporal's points (give or take a few) I just want to point out that I'm fairly certain "species privilege" comes from a blog that actually parodies the whole SJ movement. I'm not positive, though.
I also wanna say that as someone who has (briefly) been involved with actual activist work, things like this kinda ruffle my feathers just because it's difficult for me to not see it as armchairing (or slacktivism, if you like portmanteaus).
See this was said to me some time ago and I pointed out that that's just being considerate. At least I think so.
Yeah, but the thing is, that might be what it's supposed to be, but that's not what it is.
Because again, the term's been co-opted. Which sucks, but sometimes that happens.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
In this post, i'm going to use 'privilege' in the sense of 'a difference in viewpoint between people due to various socioeconomic factors'. It doesn't directly determine who gets a cushier or rougher life, and telling people their opinions are invalid because they have privileges x, y and z is nothing more than a form of silencing.
Almost everything i wanted to say here has been said already, probably better than i would have done. i entirely agree with Naney's posts regarding privilege; i also broadly agree with Justice. There are a few things i disagree with but i'll try to keep this concise.
First of all, i can certainly see how somebody might find that post condescending, but at the same time the factual content is, as far as i can tell, sound. With that in mind, i can see somebody with a particular sense of justice being motivated to write something like that, with entirely good intentions - the problem being that the people most guilty of the problematic behaviours he addresses are also the least likely to take it seriously. Creepy behaviour and misogyny exist among geeks, as does, on the other end of the spectrum white knighting and placing women on pedestals. i've also seen hostility towards girls identifying as geeks and nerds online, mostly in the form of the whole 'geek appropriation' argument.
Secondly, Justice, i think it's true that geeks are often socially-inept or have problems with empathy, but this doesn't mean that they don't have privilege - rather, i'd say it makes it harder for them to show consideration for other people and understand their points of view, which is what awareness of privilege is really all about. This goes especially for those with a chip on their shoulder about mainstream culture, who regard themselves as belonging to a kind of egalitarian, meritocratic geek brotherhood. All the same, i agree that in such instances shaming them with accusations of privilege is not constructive (nor kind).
Thirdly, Corporal Forsythe, i am fairly sure this is a political/ideological disagreement and we're not going to agree on this, but i think the 'that's just life' argument is fundamentally unhelpful, inconsiderate and defeatist. In the same way that you don't have to be the victim of a burglary to think that theft is wrong, you don't have to be on the receiving end of social injustice to oppose it, and doing so is not, in itself, condescending.
Nobody disputes that people are different; some people are born into cushier lives than others and don't have to do a day's honest work to support themselves, others work their way up the socioeconomic ladder, and overcome numerous hardships to do so. But if you tell people they have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps or starve, some people will starve. Some people are not in a position to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, for whatever reason. Some people can't afford bootstraps.
Fourthly, the idea is not to baby minorities. The idea is to treat your fellow human beings with equal respect. Sometimes well-intentioned people get it wrong, but that doesn't invalidate the general idea. i think it's important also to note that Peggy McIntosh, being a woman, does not have male privilege, so she's not just idly speculating.
Finally, while i admit to finding the idea that 'check your privilege' has any merit as a form of activism highly dubious, i do think the concept of privileging one socioeconomic group over another has value as an analytical tool. It was already being used as such prior to McIntosh's article.
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B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
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☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
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It ultimately comes down to what sells, or what's perceived to sell. Video games and comic books are still chiefly associated with a particular demographic which is known to buy products featuring sexy women, given certain values of 'sexy'.
☭
B̤̺͍̰͕̺̠̕u҉̖͙̝̮͕̲ͅm̟̼̦̠̹̙p͡s̹͖ ̻T́h̗̫͈̙̩r̮e̴̩̺̖̠̭̜ͅa̛̪̟͍̣͎͖̺d͉̦͠s͕̞͚̲͍ ̲̬̹̤Y̻̤̱o̭͠u̥͉̥̜͡ ̴̥̪D̳̲̳̤o̴͙̘͓̤̟̗͇n̰̗̞̼̳͙͖͢'҉͖t̳͓̣͍̗̰ ͉W̝̳͓̼͜a̗͉̳͖̘̮n͕ͅt͚̟͚ ̸̺T̜̖̖̺͎̱ͅo̭̪̰̼̥̜ ̼͍̟̝R̝̹̮̭ͅͅe̡̗͇a͍̘̤͉͘d̼̜ 
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The last thread we had on this got kind of nasty in places, but this one is civil so far.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i think a possible source of contention here is between people who believe there are fewer women in geek circles due to sexism in said circles, vs. people who believe there are fewer women in geek circles because geek interests are primarily male interests.
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis
i get so angry sometimes i just punch plankton --Klinotaxis