It's really weird that SA hates Golden Sun seemingly entirely because of one LP

Comments

  • edited 2017-07-23 19:06:46
    as usual, Something Awful can suck it

    (and if they do I'll buy popcorn)
  • BeeBee
    edited 2017-07-23 20:25:25
    Speaking as someone who liked that game, I can't exactly disagree with anything in that LP.  The plot is extremely verbose, complete nonsense if you're older than 14, and like three characters across both games have anything resembling a personality.

    Also keep in mind a screenshot LP involves transcribing long swaths of that nonsense, so someone doing that is going to come out very sour.  Which is probably why the attempts before Quovak failed.

    That said, almost all the problems are common to almost any JRPG of the late 90s not made by Squenix.
  • > The plot is complete nonsense if you're older than 14

    I played it at around age 22 and I felt the plot made sense.  It's a decent plot, whose most notable feature is probably the very interesting world-building.  And the characters certainly have personalities.
  • BeeBee
    edited 2017-07-23 20:30:28
    I mean on the surface it makes sense, and the worldbuilding is great.  But it completely falls apart on scrutiny, especially since nearly all the conflicts in the game could have been resolved in minutes by, ironically, more talking.

    Are you sure the characters have personalities?  Garet, Jenna, Briggs, and the villains you see all of four times, okay.  Who else?  I feel like the defining moment of that LP was that Quovak replaced all the character portraits in the ending dialogue with cats, and you had literally no way of telling which cat was which character.  Can you imagine pulling something like that in, say, Trails in the Sky (that only came out three years later)?  You'd be able to place all the cats in seconds.
  • edited 2017-07-23 20:43:21
    Bee said:

    I mean on the surface it makes sense, and the worldbuilding is great.  But it completely falls apart on scrutiny, especially since nearly all the conflicts in the game could have been resolved in minutes by, ironically, more talking.

    The same could be said of a variety of conflicts in real life.
    Bee said:

    Are you sure the characters have personalities?  Garet, Jenna, Briggs, and the villains you see all of four times, okay.  Who else?
    Ivan, Mia, Sheba, the werewolf town and its chief, the Proxians, that old guy whose name I forgot, the god-like entity, the faux-Japan villagers and their local legend, the faux-Africa villagers and that village chief guy and their festival, the monks (including the one who's secretly hungry), the rich guy at Tolbi, the Contigo townsfolk, the islanders at the edge of the world...I can bring them all to mind just from thinking of the game and I played it nearly a decade ago.  I guess you can complain about Piers, Felix, and Isaac being kinda generically blank.

    Sure they have relatively simple characterizations, but that doesn't mean those characterizations are bad or otherwise ineffective.
  • BeeBee
    edited 2017-07-23 20:56:13
    Are you sure those people had personalities, or were you just imagining and injecting them yourself because they had cute anime faces?  I know I did back then.  Also, discern between "personality" and "backstory".

    Here.  Match the cats.  Without replaying the scene or watching a video, obviously.

    EDIT: I guess it was one cat, "a man", and a fairground caricature.  So hey, more defining characteristics, right?
  • My dreams exceed my real life
  • kill living beings
    hey. what the hell?

    don't curb my enthusiasm.
  • edited 2017-07-23 21:09:22
    Bee said:

    Are you sure those people had personalities, or were you just imagining and injecting them yourself because they had cute anime faces?  I know I did back then.

    Only a minority of the various characters I named had "cute anime faces", unless you count their game world sprites as such.  Hell, one of them doesn't ever even have a face!
    Oh, also, I forgot about the folks at the Atlantis-ish place.
    Bee said:

    Here.  Match the cats.  Without replaying the scene or watching a video, obviously.

    EDIT: I guess it was one cat, "a man", and a fairground caricature.  So hey, more defining characteristics, right?
    So, some characters say things in ways that don't have obvious linguistic/usage quirks or may involve them stating the obvious or being the first to say something out loud that other people/characters would have easily thought of.

    Except characterization isn't just about a script, it's also about their visual design, the places they inhabit, the choices of people and things with whom they interact, and especially in videogames, accompanying aesthetic motifs and traits such as lighting (less present in this game) and the music (much more prominent here).  Also, sometimes there's script that isn't something a person says but describes them, or describes a group.

    For example, the people who live in the place Piers (and Alex IIRC) is from have a sort of slow, deliberative way of doing things, and this is expressed by the descriptions of their customs, as well as the slow, patient music (with a chorus-like instrumentation) and the classical architecture that are used to describe the place.  However, the (in-universe) present crisis is serious enough for them to be described as having a "raucous caucus".  Sure, that's a fun pun, but that's also a pretty meaningful description given the rest of the characterization.  So that's how we get a pretty vividly-painted mental picture of what that place is like.

    (Oh, and we didn't need any "cute anime faces" to do this.)
  • BeeBee
    edited 2017-07-24 03:39:32
    I don't mind characters having stock lines.  I mind the entire script being stock lines to the point that the speakers are completely 100% interchangeable.  Also Alex isn't Lemurian.  He's from Imil.

    I'll admit the Lemurian Senate and a good deal of nameless NPCs had considerably more personality than the main cast.  I might contest that this is an admirable trait.

    See the thing is, when I look back on the game and think "what is Ivan's personality?" I can't really come up with anything.  I can come up with his backstory, and his powers, and his secret relatives.  I can't really say much about him as a person other than "prone to hanging out with heroes".  I can barely even put together why he joins you at all -- best I can do is he figures Hammet is boned for the moment and decides to just completely ditch him for the story he mind read from you, despite it being rooted almost entirely in vague superstition (which ends up being 100% wrong) and having exactly zero stake in it five minutes prior.  If that were a minor secondary character sure, but this is one of the protagonists you spend the whole game with.  Ivan seriously ends up getting a better established personality in Dark Dawn, where he never even shows up.

    Most of the rest of the cast has similar problems.  If I'm lucky I can even give you their motives, but not really any picture of who they are as people or why they might gel together as a party in any sense other than filling in an element slot.
  • For once, or maybe twice, I was in my prime.

    It's really weird that SA hates Golden Sun seemingly entirely because of one LP


    Goons hating something because they'd rather parrot a one-sided screed than look into the subject matter themselves? Say it ain't so.
  • edited 2017-07-23 21:46:52
    Bee said:

    Also Alex isn't Lemurian.  He's from Imil.

    Ah, yes, my bad.  He's from Mia's town, not Piers's.  (I felt something was off when I recalled that...)
    Bee said:

    I'll admit the Lemurian Senate and a good deal of nameless NPCs had considerably more personality than the main cast.  I might contest that this is an admirable trait.

    See the thing is, when I look back on the game and think "what is Ivan's personality?" I can't really come up with anything.  I can come up with his backstory, and his powers, and his secret relatives.  I can't really say much about him as a person other than "prone to hanging out with heroes".  I can barely even put together why he joins you at all -- best I can do is he figures Hammet is boned for the moment and decides to just completely ditch him for the story he mind read from you, despite it being rooted almost entirely in vague superstition (which ends up being 100% wrong).
    I feel that this verges on a different problem, of equating "personality" with "distinctiveness" or "memorableness".  If someone's just generally an agreeable person that you can get along with, kind of a generic good friend type, they don't lack a personality, even if it's hard to say what's so special about them.

    I guess, for me, that backstory and such IS a large part of the characterization, because it defines who the person is, and even if they have a "generic agreeable person" personality, their words and deeds are still understood through and filtered through their experiences.  It's entirely possible and frequently plausible for two people to do the same thing, say the same thing, act the same way, but for completely different reasons.

    In any case, I can agree that the characterization is weaker for at least some of the characters, such as Isaac and Felix (who are the lead protags, unfortunately, though this is largely because they're intentionally given a mute protag role), as well as Piers and Karst and Agatio (though the main issue with them was that they were just not very distinguishable from Saturos and Menardi, aside from Menardi and Karst being rather different) and to some extent Ivan as well.

    But perhaps that's why I feel that this game's strongest point is its worldbuilding.  It builds a pretty extensive lore structure for the world of Weyard and those "nameless NPCs" actually do quite a bit of characterization of how this world works.  The Mind Read psynergy makes things even more fun and interesting, giving more angles and depth to them and their experiences.  So, in a way, perhaps we could say that the protags are may in some ways be a bit generic but essentially serve a narrative function of being the eyes and ears through which the player experiences the world (from up to 8 or 9 different perspectives via the different characters' commentary), for whom the world comes alive, through these characters and their experiences as they journey and interact with various others.

    (Also, those "cute anime pictures" themselves do have suggest personality traits too.)
  • My dreams exceed my real life
    image
  • Odradek said:

    [picture i do not understand]

    Are you trying to get us to stop or something?
  • Sup bitches, witches, Haters, and trolls.
    He's trying to force a meme
  • My dreams exceed my real life
    Calica said:

    He's trying to force a meme

    I discovered this meme via hours of mining, do not disrespect me on this
  • all memes are forced memes
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