Television's obsession with "edginess"

Anonus

Sex, violence, what about TELLING A GOOD STORY?

And why is TV so obsessed with amoral protagonists anymore?

Bee

Because Dark Knight Returns and 90s comics finally caught up with TV.

Aliroz

Because it doesn't ask anything of the audience.

MetaFour

I understand all

destructive urges.

They seem so perfect.

I see,

I see no,

I see no... evil!

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Even though I like the song, I have to admit the lyrics are kinda edgelord-y.

Oh, wait. You meant... 

Nevermind.

Toolsie

Same reason "edgy" games exist

Because there's a market for them

I mean, look at the success of Game of Thrones

Odradek

What about airline food

lee4hmz

Bee said:

Because Dark Knight Returns and 90s comics finally caught up with TV.

we need more ridiculously huge guns, backbreaking anatomy, and pouches pouches pouches

Calica

Odradek said:

What about airline food

Sredni Vashtar

MetaFour said:

I understand all

destructive urges.

They seem so perfect.

I see,

I see no,

I see no... evil!

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Even though I like the song, I have to admit the lyrics are kinda edgelord-y.

Oh, wait. You meant... 

Nevermind.

This thread did not deserve a response this good.

Odradek

glennmagusharvey

i like airline food

LOAD Cherry

To answer the question seriously, it's because right now dark mindless drivel sells better than upbeat mindless drivel and television's always gonna be at least 60% mindless drivel because it's a business and cheap, quick scripts done by mediocre writers are a safer investment than fleshed-out complex ones, regardless of tone.

Section42L

Cerise and Meta both win the thread, albeit in very different ways.

Crystal

Sredni Vashtar said:

MetaFour said:

I understand all

destructive urges.

They seem so perfect.

I see,

I see no,

I see no... evil!

Yeah, I see where you're coming from. Even though I like the song, I have to admit the lyrics are kinda edgelord-y.

Oh, wait. You meant... 

Nevermind.

This thread did not deserve a response this good.

Bee

lee4hmz said:

Bee said:

Because Dark Knight Returns and 90s comics finally caught up with TV.

we need more ridiculously huge guns, backbreaking anatomy, and pouches pouches pouches

If your superhero doesn't have "blood" or "war" somewhere in his name, HE'S A DUMB HERO

Imipolex G

this blood's for you

Sredni Vashtar

Imipolex G said:

this blood's for you

DON'T LOSE YOUR W—

*flies out window in a hail of broken glass*

Crystal

Dusts the fur off of her shirt

I think the resident maid needs to do some clean up work.

LW

I think part of the reason why dark and edgy shows are as prevalent on TV as they are is because dark and edgy shows are popular among the general public (or at least a significant chunk of the portion of the public that TV networks actively court) and among critics, a number of whom have praised shows like Game of Thrones and Breaking Bad for being deep and realistic.

Sredni Vashtar

The irony is, those shows are engaging for their character writing and direction more than anything else. Violence, harmatia, and bad things happening to good people are certainly important to the plots, but that's not *why* critics and the better part of their audience like them. But I wouldn't be surprised if people trying to make a quick buck only see that far and try to repeat the formula without what actually makes it work.

LOAD Cherry

Sredni Vashtar said:

The irony is, those shows are engaging for their character writing and direction more than anything else. Violence, harmatia, and bad things happening to good people are certainly important to the plots, but that's not *why* critics and the better part of their audience like them. But I wouldn't be surprised if people trying to make a quick buck only see that far and try to repeat the formula without what actually makes it work.

Bingo. Game of Thrones has the darkness and violence. But what makes it engaging is the cast and how they interact. Not just the spectacle of violence.

Bee

Or at least it would be if they had any characters left you could give a damn about.  It's very, very easy to file it under "horrible people do horrible things to each other" and start hoping the dragons eat everyone and torch the continent out of its misery.

Except Hodor.  Hodor becomes the king of Hodorville.

Corvina

Bee said:

Or at least it would be if they had any characters left you could give a damn about.  It's very, very easy to file it under "horrible people do horrible things to each other" and start hoping the dragons eat everyone and torch the continent out of its misery.

Except Hodor.  Hodor becomes the king of Hodorville.

This became my view of GoT/aSoIaF a year or so ago and remains it

Haven

Bee said:

lee4hmz said:

Bee said:

Because Dark Knight Returns and 90s comics finally caught up with TV.

we need more ridiculously huge guns, backbreaking anatomy, and pouches pouches pouches

If your superhero doesn't have "blood" or "war" somewhere in his name, HE'S A DUMB HERO

Imipolex G

I remember that particular panel. For some reason it made me laugh uncontrollably when I was about 12

Aliroz

If A Song of Ice and Fire was about, say, Maester Luwin, Masha Heddle, or Septon Chayle, it could show us more of the non-noble people, perhaps giving us more views on the world, perhaps portraying some aspects of a world that are worth saving.

But no, we got to spend time with these stupid nobles playing their stupid politics.  And also ice monsters and dragons.

Odradek

Still not sure why peasant rebellion is not an option

LOAD Cherry

Bee said:

Or at least it would be if they had any characters left you could give a damn about.  It's very, very easy to file it under "horrible people do horrible things to each other" and start hoping the dragons eat everyone and torch the continent out of its misery.

Except Hodor.  Hodor becomes the king of Hodorville.

I can't object to this since I haven't watched any of the last two seasons.

Yarrun XIX

Odradek said:

Still not sure why peasant rebellion is not an option

Because they're not as pretty or marketable as the nobles

Bee

The only good ending still possible in that series is that Hodor somehow wins everything.

Bee

Knightess Cerise said:

Bee said:

Or at least it would be if they had any characters left you could give a damn about.  It's very, very easy to file it under "horrible people do horrible things to each other" and start hoping the dragons eat everyone and torch the continent out of its misery.

Except Hodor.  Hodor becomes the king of Hodorville.

I can't object to this since I haven't watched any of the last two seasons.

Honestly I stopped paying attention sometime during the second season.  It was just this nagging feeling of "why the hell am I still watching this trainwreck of humanity" that eventually became too loud to ignore.

Sredni Vashtar

Why is it that any mention of this series in the course of an otherwise friendly discussion devolves into the same people complaining loudly about it in a manner that suggests that liking it makes you a tasteless moron? I was actually excited to see that Cerise and Epitome have watched and liked it as well, but there's a reason I don't bring it up much here.

Seriously, Bee, everybody knows you don't like this series. Chill the fuck out. I don't need you to start throwing a hissy fit every time a thing you didn't enjoy is mentioned.

Klinotaxis

Odradek said:

Still not sure why peasant rebellion is not an option

a story where you know from the beginning that every character is going to die of disease or be tortured to death having succeeded at none of their goals might be kind of interesting, but i don't know about selling it

Tatterhood

Klinotaxis said:

Odradek said:

Still not sure why peasant rebellion is not an option

a story where you know from the beginning that every character is going to die of disease or be tortured to death having succeeded at none of their goals might be kind of interesting, but i don't know about selling it

I was under the impression that that's already what game of thrones is

Klinotaxis

i don't know much about game of thrones but i think a few kings and thrones and whatnot have been killed. that's, you know, something. a change.

Sredni Vashtar

Actually, the way that people who are deprived and trampled upon by a society can become complicit in its oppression despite also being the key to its transformation is a big part of Danaerys' story arc. There's also the whole thing with Mance Rayder and the Free Folk, and the whole plotline involving Thoros of Myr's band, but those are a bit different. I'm pretty sure there are a few straight-up peasant rebellions mentioned, but I think the Lannisters send the Mountain in and kill everyone because they don't understand where their bread comes from, and that actually becomes a problem later...

God. this series is fucking dense.

Klinotaxis

Game of Thrones wiki said:

A major theme emphasized in the A Song of Ice and Fire novels is that it doesn't really matter to the [peasants] who wins the "game of thrones", the political machinations in Westeros, because either way the outbreak of war is making them suffer.

yeah there's this and also the later bits about joffrey raping peasants horses or whatever

whenever i hear about game of thrones the brutal violence comes up, and i'm like yeah whatever edgy and stuff, but it's usually nobles to nobles, as far as i understand. there was plenty of that in real life but usually (nearly always?) it was targeted to peasants, e.g.

Spoiler:

Wikipedia on György Dózsa said:

He was captured after the battle, and condemned to sit on a heated smoldering iron throne with a heated iron crown on his head and a heated sceptre in his hand (mocking at his ambition to be king). While he was suffering in this way, a procession of nine fellow rebels, who had been starved beforehand, were led to this throne. In the lead was Dózsa's younger brother, Gergely, who was cut in three despite Dózsa asking for Gergely to be spared. Next, executioners removed hot pliers from fire and forced them into Dózsa's skin. After pulling flesh from him, the remaining rebels were ordered to bite where the hot iron had been inserted and to swallow the flesh. Those who refused, about three or four, were simply cut up which prompted the remaining rebels to do as commanded. In the end, Dózsa died on the throne of iron from the damage that was inflicted while the rebels who obeyed were let go without further harm.

which i would describe as "edgy" if i saw it on tv, despite it actually happening

Sredni Vashtar

Oh, quite a bit of the stuff alluded to is horrible shit happening to peasants. It seems that the mark of a character you should root for is that they treat commoners like actual human beings, even if they are kind of scary otherwise: Arya, Varys, Robb, Danaerys, Jon, and so forth.

Part of this, I think, is because the world of Game of Thrones draws not so much on the history of the Dark Ages as it does on fiction, poetry and scholarship *from* the Dark Ages. I talked with Alex about this a while back, and it stuck me how the whole world of the story seems like a realisation of how early mediaeval people thought the world was, or at least how they portrayed it. Which includes members of the nobility seeming to believe that peasants are another species, among other things.

Klinotaxis

that is definitely something actual nobility believed in and acted in accordance with in actual europe

so maybe i don't understand what you mean by that bit

Sredni Vashtar

I mean that this was also a big part of the literature of the time. But in other areas where things are more fantastical or outrageous, it's clearly a reflection of things like how the Crusaders thought that the Saracens worshipped a hermaphroditic goat deity and those weird rambling Byzantine histories that are 75% gossip and misunderstandings of Roman texts.

Klinotaxis

oh. yeah i guess that's plausible.

by horrible shit happening i think i was thinking of somebody who like, has molten gold poured on them? or that wedding thing, which i guess is probably glencoe

Obā-san

Klinotaxis said:

that wedding thing, which i guess is probably glencoe

Glencoe/McGraw-Hill is definitely an atrocity yes

lee4hmz

bleeeeeeah

Klinotaxis

Today is Tomorrow said:

Klinotaxis said:

that wedding thing, which i guess is probably glencoe

Glencoe/McGraw-Hill is definitely an atrocity yes

im puttin up a cenotaph

Sredni Vashtar

Both of those have some precedent in and out of literature, but it's worth noting in the former case that the guy who gets "crowned" not only constantly disrespected his hosts and brought violence into their inner sanctum on a feast day, but did so by assaulting their emperor's wife, who also happened to be his sister. It's basically a lethal version of Barbarossa's "Ecco la fica!"

Anonus

McGraw-Hill used to own Denver's ABC station, which I always thought was funny

The company they sold it to is far worse at running it

lee4hmz

now I'm thinking of the giant metal bull that someone was roasted alive in, which I'm pretty sure was actually antiquity, but still pretty gruesome

Klinotaxis

Sredni Vashtar said:

constantly disrespected his hosts and brought violence into their inner sanctum on a feast day, but did so by assaulting their emperor's wife, who also happened to be his sister

that all sounds very "nobility", hehhhhh

Anonus

despite finding this disturbing i'm reminded of how little i know about world history, despite taking a class on it >_<

Sredni Vashtar

Klinotaxis said:

Sredni Vashtar said:

constantly disrespected his hosts and brought violence into their inner sanctum on a feast day, but did so by assaulting their emperor's wife, who also happened to be his sister

that all sounds very "nobility", hehhhhh

Technically. He was the heir to a deposed royal house, but to the crazy horse people he's basically just a puny little blond puke with no manners and terrible riding skills. And he does nothing but bitch about getting his crown and how the horse people should serve him and helping get it back.

And then he steps over one too many lines, and the lead horseman guy is all, "You want your crown? Here it is: A crown for a king." And he gets it.

...wait, you were making a pun. Goddamnitall.

lee4hmz said:

now I'm thinking of the giant metal bull that someone was roasted alive in, which I'm pretty sure was actually antiquity, but still pretty gruesome

That was, I think, Babylonian. But nevertheless, relevant.

Alduin

The Bull of Phalaris? I know that was used well into the Roman Empire...