Well I apologize for being overly brutish, but I think my most recent post explains my point of view perfectly.
It might, but you didn't start out saying this. Instead, you rather viciously insulted a fellow board member without even asking what he meant by posting what he did, and that's unacceptable behaviour.
isn't the video that's being circulated -- the InternetAristocrat video...
..isn't InternetAristocrat that same guy who had a lot to say about that one community manager person for the Mighty No. 9 forum?
Yes, he is also the same dude that did a bunch of condescending, arrogant, and so forth videos about Tumblr (like thing privilege and white privilege), and Anita. He's joined in on the kerfuffle, but thankfully isn't worth making a fuss about. I mean, beyond the fact that he's not contributing anything good to this conversation, which should be obvious given his past videos.
I hate when people act like privilege isn't a thing at all. Sure, some people misuse it - not unlike the people who misuse "violence" and "abuse" - and they are annoying, but acting like institutional racism doesn't exist because you haven't experienced it or acting like sexism is over because more women are in college shows that you really are horribly sheltered and unwilling to leave your mental comfort zone.
He also focuses on a very specific part of the Tumblr community that does express incredibly hateful thoughts towards the types of people he makes videos on (e.g., white people), and really isn't that good of an arguer from what I remember of his videos.
I'm making it through his "Quinnspiracy" video, it's just kind of hard to do when, two minutes in, he dismisses the white- and male-centric, and sexist nature of the video game industry, as having "nothing to do with gaming, or game reviews, events, or expos" etc. He later goes on to state something pretty simple: He doesn't care about her relations, except for when they highlight nepotism/corruption in the industry. This is his proof for why Zoe is apparently full of it, and wasn't actually harassed (which she apparently "rode" the wave of harassment to become a name in the industry, and push through Depression Quest). Later he brings up the "Five Guys" - Joshua Boggs, Nathan Grayson, Robin Arnott, Kyle Pulver, and BrandonMcCartin. Grayson gets focus for having written "positive reviews" about her game while they were together, Kotaku's response is here, though the video links other articles he's written about it; this all times into them supporting each other via nepotism and having no professional barrier. At 11:56 in his video he reads a post from r/tumblrinaction by SlickSlader about how Zoe doxxed and started a Twitter storm towards this group (the voting link SlickSlader linked has since been taken down). His next argument boils down to: They were doing a noble thing for creating games women pitched, why did you mess it up. Well, that's simple, Grayson suppressed the bad publicity. At 16:21 he shows how Arnott, who has relations to Phil Fish (indie game dev for FEZ, etc.), liked a Twitter post by Fish that shouted down someone who had apparently been sexually harassed at a party by her. He then goes on a tirade about how Fish is a "ugly, mutton chop, sideburn-having motherfucker" one-hit wonder without standards that runs his mouth (and maybe they had sex!), and that's why FEZ isn't getting a sequel. Comparisons are drawn to Anita having apparently sexed her way into the industry, but that's mostly irrelevant aside from him trying to form this into one larger... idea. The idea of video gave journalism having no integrity, and all about being who knows/has sex with who, and that's why it's at a new low. He then calls them (those that have apparently had relations with her, etc.) all hypocrites for talking about "clickbait buzzwords" ("feminism" and the like), and that they're a bunch of 'hypocritical cunts" perpetuating lies. So he says to those watching to continue calling these people out and not put up with them - "have your games not been tampered with enough at this point?" - and we've got a choice between Anita's and Fish's, or not-them. Hold them accountable, etc.
There. I watched his video so you people don't have to, because he covered a lot of people. I did it. Here is Zoe's response to the debacle, or at least one of her longer responses. Is chronicling the chronicles of this ever tiring, why do I do this to myself.
You know what I've gathered from this? There's the same, massive amount of mud-slinging that always happen whenever women do something in gaming, from naming names, to thinking there's a giant conspiracy, and so forth. The details that she has worked her way into the industry are dubious at best, all while filled with utter vitriol. Maybe she did a thing, but no news person is going to really cover this cohesively and in a manner that gives all people participating their due (I mean, "hypocritical cunts"? Seriously?). And, clearly, the gaming industry isn't actually bad; it's all just a giant conspiracy by the dirty, dirty, feminists and similar. Which is to say, the usual. I hope I've made myself clear here.
As for food: I have a love/hate relationship with Five Guys. What I've had is delicious, but incredibly unhealthy. Not for me...
EDIT: Son of a gun, Yarrun apparently wrote up a way shorter post on the previous page, and I've talked extensively about drama I'd rather not talk about, again. Not that I mind reading about drama sometimes, this is just silly, to put it lightly. Now, for stuff I enjoy...
Yeah, when you have to start insisting that whistleblowers are doing it entirely for personal gain (be it money, fame, or genitals to suck on), you automatically lose the argument. Misogynists and racists have been doing both recently... :P
Remember back in the 50s when they'd record like Elvis singing YOU AIN'T NOTHIN BUT A HOUND DOG and then they'd turn the record over and reverse it and it was all NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP and people were all like, "That is actually the voice of Satan coming from that song."
I like how the moment someone dares to break our precious little echo chamber here, even when they already mostly agree with us, our response is to snap at them, give a passive-aggressive "apology" (no Mojave, that wasn't a genuine apology, try again and fucking mean it this time), and then go back to being an echo chamber. You people should be fucking ashamed of yourselves.
Anyhow, I'm going to copypaste this Tumblr post that seems fairly reasonable:
Everyone involved is unprofessional and unlikable like I said before... If it’s all true, because this is the kind of stuff that’s pretty hard to prove and I can’t go around claiming it as an absolute truth: The guys in the situation are extremely unprofessional for trading sex for good reviews and publicity. She’s extremely unprofessional and an unlikable person for using this “loophole” and exploiting it while cheating on her boyfriend to promote herself and her game. Not to mention that she got non-anonymously accused of sexual harassment. And the “faux journalism” side that is going all LOOK AT THE ANTI-FEMINISTS TRYING TO BRING HER DOWN are once again hopping on the drama train condemning any criticism of a woman in the gaming industry like they keep doing Anita Sarkeesian style. Making the whole matter even worse. Like I also said before, Zoe Quinn is one of the very few semi high profile women in gaming. Whether she likes it or not or whether it’s fair or not the reputation and actions of these few women are very important. And hers reflect extremely poorly on our presence and is only bringing the reputation of female voices in gaming down.
Nathan Grayson never reviewed Depression Quest. Considering that he's the one being used to go "Oh, she slept with people to get good reviews!", that is a critical point here. He mentioned it. Not reviewed it, mentioned it.
Remember back in the 50s when they'd record like Elvis singing YOU AIN'T NOTHIN BUT A HOUND DOG and then they'd turn the record over and reverse it and it was all NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP and people were all like, "That is actually the voice of Satan coming from that song."
Presumably that's where the if comes in. Because to be perfectly honest, there is a lot of anecdote going on here.
Though personally, if the sexual harassment claims are true, I find it rather disgusting that someone would do that. Even if the guy "wasn't invited to the wedding", that's still no excuse.
Okay, first, that Tumblr post assumes all parties in this are equally credible and thus equally culpable. It completely ignores how strong the misogyny is in the gaming community, and thus why people like her ex would air that sort of dirty laundry in the first place.
Second, this is a classic type of political dirty trick, and I've seen it used before. The Republican Congress impeached President Bill Clinton in 1998 for what was a relatively benign charge, lying about a sexual relationship he had with an intern. There was a lot of hand-wringing about ethics and abuse of power and "poor Hillary" and all that, but really? It was about removing Bill Clinton from office, a stated goal of the conservative wing of the Republican Party since at least the Branch Davidian incident in 1993.
The same thing is happening here. This is not about ethics, this is not about "faux journalism", this is about slut-shaming and trying to end an outspoken woman's career.
Remember back in the 50s when they'd record like Elvis singing YOU AIN'T NOTHIN BUT A HOUND DOG and then they'd turn the record over and reverse it and it was all NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP NYERP and people were all like, "That is actually the voice of Satan coming from that song."
Upon further reflection, I think I should apologize for that first paragraph above. It was unfair of me to lash out at everyone in this thread out of anger at the actions of one individual.
Like I also said before, Zoe Quinn is one of the very few semi high profile women in gaming. Whether she likes it or not or whether it’s fair or not the reputation and actions of these few women are very important. And hers reflect extremely poorly on our presence and is only bringing the reputation of female voices in gaming down.
btw fuck this specifically, it's just a twist to make asking for superhuman morality for certain groups in order to be accepted sound reasonable
as for the rest, reviewers having sex for whatever is unprofessional, but a woman doing it is both unprofessional and makes her "an unlikeable person". that's cool. did the reviewers have partners to cheat on?
how's the power dynamic for that usually go, would you say? you know, couch casting? is it generally the up and coming actress that initiates that or, maybe, is it the casting director that has power? would a reviewer asking for sex for the sake of a positive review make them "unlikeable" or do they just remain "unprofessional"?
this is, of course, something to consider in the seemingly unlikely case that any sexual collusion even fucking happened at all.
I'll admit it, the Quinn supporters are a bit too forgiving of her. They're also a bit too harsh on the ex, whose expose was more driven by pain than spite or hatred, imo. But that doesn't change the fact that this didn't need to be a public issue (except maybe the harassment claims; I haven't actually looked into that yet), and that most of the reaction to this is completely uncalled for.
Yes, the internet can be used to dole out justice to those who deserve it, to expose dark secrets to the light. 4chan, for all it's terribleness, has taken down child molesters in the past. But that's not what this is. What has been done to Quinn is not justice. It's bitterness and rage that's found a proper banner to hide behind. What part of Quinn's actions justifies stealing and posting nude photographs of her? Or posting her address? Or death threats? Even if she did use her cheating as a way to boost her career (despite all sources stating that her partners never wrote anything significant on her), does that mean her game now sucks and that she's worthless as a human being? Her, as opposed to all the big companies who've outright bribed their way to good reviews?
Bill Clinton didn't get successfully expelled from office after the Lewinsky scandal, largely because Congress recognized that didn't have anything to do with his quality as a president. We practically remember JFK fondly for cheating on his wife on several occasions. Martin Luther King Jr.'s escapades are even less talked about than the FBI assassinating him (which did totally happen, btw). To take examples from the art world, Woody Allen's still not completely recognized as a guy who creeped on his stepdaughter. And Roman Polanski still has a career after raping an underage girl, even if he did have to flee the country. Sexual indiscretion and worth as a person, or a leader, or an artist, are separate. We know that, as a species. So why are we branding Quinn? It's because a good portion of the internet believes that, not only is her indiscretions related to her work, but that her work could have only succeeded through her indiscretions. That at some point, she cheated on her way to the top, because there's no way that a girl with her text-game belongs in the videogame community. That is what all this hullabaloo is about: making sure that minorities in the video game world can't exist unless they're perfect human beings without any flaws to pick on. Same crap that happens when the media says that Michael Brown smoked weed or pick the thuggiest-looking picture of Trayvon that they can find. Was what Quinn did more of a dick move than those two examples? Unless the ex put a lot of work into fabricating evidence, probably. But it's still the same frigging dynamic.
So why are we branding Quinn? It's because a good portion of the internet believes that, not only is her indiscretions related to her work, but that her work could have only succeeded through her indiscretions. That at some point, she cheated on her way to the top, because there's no way that a girl with her text-game belongs in the videogame community. That is what all this hullabaloo is about: making sure that minorities in the video game world can't exist unless they're perfect human beings without any flaws to pick on.
Upon further reflection, I think I should apologize for that first paragraph above. It was unfair of me to lash out at everyone in this thread out of anger at the actions of one individual.
FWIW, literally everybody else involved in the discussion at the time told Mojave to knock it off.
Upon further reflection, I think I should apologize for that first paragraph above. It was unfair of me to lash out at everyone in this thread out of anger at the actions of one individual.
FWIW, literally everybody else involved in the discussion at the time told Mojave to knock it off.
gee that sure sounds like something that would happen
Upon further reflection, I think I should apologize for that first paragraph above. It was unfair of me to lash out at everyone in this thread out of anger at the actions of one individual.
FWIW, literally everybody else involved in the discussion at the time told Mojave to knock it off.
gee that sure sounds like something that would happen
in an echo chamber
thereisnowaytowin.png
I was trying to make it clear that I didn't agree with Prof there, since he invoked me in his accusations.
Nathan Grayson never reviewed Depression Quest. Considering that he's the one being used to go "Oh, she slept with people to get good reviews!", that is a critical point here. He mentioned it. Not reviewed it, mentioned it.
it's pretty amazing that in an industry where developers have actually paid money to journalists in exchange for favorable reviews, that we're focusing on a case where no money was exchanged and no articles were written.
phah, game journalists only except bribes in the forms of goods (specifically doritos & mountain dew) and services (VIP treatment at le video game 20xx expotainmentmercial)
Comments
Just saying that the scandal and the game are two completely separate matters.
Furthermore, just because "it feels like 47 lines of HTML" doesn't tell me why it's not a game. Last I checked, some pebbles and pond can be a game.
If so then I have a bunch more reviews to downvote.
i had five guys a few weeks back
it was super fucking expensive and it tasted like the lamest homemade burgers of all time
isn't the video that's being circulated -- the InternetAristocrat video...
..isn't InternetAristocrat that same guy who had a lot to say about that one community manager person for the Mighty No. 9 forum?
Then again the chain is not in my country so I don't really care, but it's fun seeing all the disagreements
First it was the chicken strips that they took away, and then McBites, and then their wings that they had for a little while.
Heh.
Nah, don't worry, I'm not a copyright troll. Just a thumbsdown troll.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
even tvtropes joked about it, "eight point eight" or whatever
how's the power dynamic for that usually go, would you say? you know, couch casting? is it generally the up and coming actress that initiates that or, maybe, is it the casting director that has power? would a reviewer asking for sex for the sake of a positive review make them "unlikeable" or do they just remain "unprofessional"?
this is, of course, something to consider in the seemingly unlikely case that any sexual collusion even fucking happened at all.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
They're not to blame for what happened.
in an echo chamber
thereisnowaytowin.png
I'm sorry that I didn't make it clear enough.
sorry for ruining the joke :v
I'm just still slightly strung out by what happened last night, and I don't want it to happen again.
phah, game journalists only except bribes in the forms of goods (specifically doritos & mountain dew) and services (VIP treatment at le video game 20xx expotainmentmercial)