Demons are cooler than Angels

Alduin · 2013-03-29 12:35:14

Man, why do demons always get to be cooler than angels? I mean angels are just dudes with wings. Demons can be attractive women who kill you through sex, goat heads with lots and lots of legs, visceral Contra-ish monsters, giant horned flaming beasts, and ravens that can turn into dudes. Is it because of some intrinsic good is boring attitude?

Imipolex G · 2013-03-29 12:38:38

Angels used to be a lot more freaky-looking, before they got all wimpified

Aliroz · 2013-03-29 12:51:44

You mean the Angels with more than two wings; with three heads, with flaming swords?

Or you mean this guy:

Now try and tell me that the thing getting its face stomped is the cooler one. Just try and say that with a straight face. That's the Archangel Micheal, the face-stomper.

Fossilmaiden · 2013-03-29 12:55:53

Depicted: Cherubim.

One-Winged Eagle · 2013-03-29 13:06:26

"Man, why do demons always get to be cooler than angels? I mean angels are just dudes with wings."

Be silent. You understand naught what you speak.

Alduin · 2013-03-29 13:28:40

Satan looks like a redneck in that first picture.

Be silent. You understand naught what you speak.

I need proof.

Justice4243 · 2013-03-29 14:00:00

There's been some pretty crapy demons in art as well. In more modern times they're a bit more "hardcore" as they can make for imposing antagonists, but back in the day, they where often goofy looking tempters.

Also, with Angels we have Azreal, angel of death:

Also you get guys like Sandalphon who seems to be somewhere in the realm of several million miles tall.

Mr. Darcy · 2013-03-29 15:00:44

The Ophanim (see Ezekiel 1) look like a wheel within a wheel, made of beryl and both rims covered with eyes.

The Cherubim (Ezekiel 1, many other places) appear to be on fire and have four faces: a man's, bull's, lion's and eagle's, with four wings: two to fly and two to veil their bodies so you don't go mad from the revelation.

The Seraphim (see Isaiah 6) look like six wings made of fire: two to fly, two to veil their bodies and two to veil their faces. Considering what Cherub faces look like...

Justice4243 · 2013-03-29 15:11:12

I'm guessing Angels tend to just be "dudes with wings" based partially off this verse:

Zechariah 5:9
New International Version (NIV)
⁹Then I looked up—and there before me were two women, with the wind in their wings! They had wings like those of a stork,^A)'> and they lifted up the basket between heaven and earth.

And partially because when artist want to show someone is the "good guy" it's pretty hard when he's a terrifying, multi-headed, fiery monstrosity. Even if you go to great lengths to point out that the monstrosity "totally sings praises to God like 'ALL THE TIME!, MAN!' "

Mr. Darcy · 2013-03-29 15:39:08

Justice42 said:

And partially because when artist want to show someone is the "good guy" it's pretty hard when he's a terrifying, multi-headed, fiery monstrosity. Even if you go to great lengths to point out that the monstrosity "totally sings praises to God like 'ALL THE TIME!, MAN!' "

Actually it's pretty comforting if someone starts going on about the insanity-inducing eldritch things that prove nihilism.

Misery · 2013-03-29 16:53:41

Angels are also flaming wheels with bunch of eyes and four faces

One-Winged Eagle · 2013-03-29 20:37:34

Eat it. Eat all of it.

Tanya · 2013-03-29 21:04:20

How about that Lucifer, I heard he angels and doesn't afraid.

Hexartes · 2013-03-29 21:16:51

Fossilmaiden said:

Depicted: Seraphim

ftfy

Viani · 2013-03-30 04:04:51

Didn't Bayonetta base all of it's angels on the non-moe-kyun cutie-pie angels and went ahead and did the horror-in-the-flesh "bare eyes naught upon me" Angels?

One-Winged Eagle · 2013-03-30 12:41:54

That's why it's my example.

Fossilmaiden · 2013-03-30 13:46:04

@Kexruct: Seraphim don't have four faces. And have six wings.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-03-30 15:00:28

Mr. Darcy said:
The Ophanim (see Ezekiel 1) look like a wheel within a wheel, made of beryl and both rims covered with eyes.

The Cherubim (Ezekiel 1, many other places) appear to be on fire and have four faces: a man's, bull's, lion's and eagle's, with four wings: two to fly and two to veil their bodies so you don't go mad from the revelation.

The Seraphim (see Isaiah 6) look like six wings made of fire: two to fly, two to veil their bodies and two to veil their faces. Considering what Cherub faces look like...

I was about to mention that.

The thing about angels is that their forms were meant to represent the god-presence on Earth, and hence were like God in that they were of all things and yet separate from them. Thusly, they appeared as a mixture of all living things, particularly fearsome things, wreathed in fire and covered in eyes so that they might see all around them as God sees all.

In other words, the forms that the angels took are the world trying to comprehend God-ness.

Think about that for a while.

Scared yet?

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-03-30 15:02:42

Also, in older Jewish tradition, demons have nothing to do with fallen angels. Make of that what you will.

Tanya · 2013-03-30 15:15:15

Sredni Vashtar said:
Also, in older Jewish tradition, demons have nothing to do with fallen angels. Make of that what you will.

What about Daemons?

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-03-30 15:30:59

That's Greek philosophy. Slightly different.

Miss Miko Mayonegg · 2013-03-30 15:58:32

Are... demons and daemons not the same thing? :o

Justice4243 · 2013-03-30 18:35:16

In old Jewish tradition demons where everything from tiny, invisible, horrifying things that rubbed and scratched at your body to make you age to things that possessed you while you where using the toilet.

Hexartes · 2013-03-30 18:36:56

Fossilmaiden said:
@Kexruct: Seraphim don't have four faces. And have six wings.

Oh, sorry. >_> I didn't notice the extra faces.

Obā-san · 2013-03-30 18:54:16

Viani · 2013-03-30 21:53:38

And most demons are just Gods from other ancient religions that Constantinople blackwashed to appear evil and render them unworshippable, right?

Imipolex G · 2013-03-30 21:57:10

Constantinople? Constantine?

Alduin · 2013-03-30 23:19:07

Sredni Vashtar said:
Also, in older Jewish tradition, demons have nothing to do with fallen angels. Make of that what you will.

So more like djinns than fallen angels?

Justice4243 · 2013-03-31 00:11:44

Something like that, as sorta mentioned mentioned, they're often responsible for a lot of the bad things the Jews couldn't explain otherwise.

Justice4243 · 2013-03-31 00:13:49

For instance, Lilith, while one of the most powerful demons was mostly responsible for sudden infant death syndrome.

Obā-san · 2013-03-31 00:16:32

but we still don't have an explanation for sudden infant death syndrome

.....

oh shit

Viani · 2013-03-31 03:20:36

well killing infants is pretty powerful. You halt the progress that the child could have done. Attack it in it's most vulnerable state.

Tanya · 2013-03-31 04:01:40

Viani said:
well killing infants is pretty powerful. You halt the progress that the child could have done. Attack it in it's most vulnerable state.

Heck, remember that Voldemort fella, he could've used a hand in killing an infant.

Justice4243 · 2013-03-31 11:47:48

Kinda relevant, Lillith still has to answer to three angels; Senoy, Sansenoy, and Semangolef.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-03-31 12:05:59

There was also Asmodai, whom Solomon supposedly trapped in a ring and forced to do his bidding.

Hexartes · 2013-03-31 12:07:00

Sredni Vashtar said:There was also Asmodai, whom Solomon supposedly trapped in a ring and forced to do his bidding.

Solomon forced a lot of demons to do his bidding.

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-03-31 12:07:58

Yes, about three hundred, but Asmodai was the single most powerful. Let that sink in for a moment.

Tachyon · 2013-03-31 12:09:07

i was never clear on whether Solomon's actions there were supposed to be respectable or reprehensible.

Hexartes · 2013-03-31 12:10:47

Tachyon said:
i was never clear on whether Solomon's actions there were supposed to be respectable or reprehensible.

Didn't he do it with permission from God?

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-03-31 12:12:38

Kexruct said:

Tachyon said:
i was never clear on whether Solomon's actions there were supposed to be respectable or reprehensible.
Didn't he do it with permission from God?

Yes.

The idea, if I am correct, is that the demons and fallen angels in question were being punished for their transgressions through servitude to man, specifically a righteous man that was clever enough to exploit their weaknesses.

Justice4243 · 2013-03-31 12:17:32

The G man was indeed fine with Solomon's enslavement of Demons. Controlling demons Solomon style often involves evoking the name of God or an Angel.

Tachyon · 2013-03-31 12:17:54

Ah, i see. Thanks for the explanation, that has bugged me for a while.

Justice4243 · 2013-03-31 12:30:23

Apparently he was punished at one point:

One legend concerning Asmodeus goes on to state that Solomon one day asked Asmodeus what could make demons powerful over man, and Asmodeus asked to be freed and given the ring so that he could demonstrate; Solomon agreed but Asmodeus threw the ring into the sea and it was swallowed by a fish. Asmodeus then swallowed the king, stood up fully with one wing touching heaven and the other earth, and spat out Solomon to a distance of 400 miles. The Rabbis claim this was a divine punishment for Solomon's having failed to follow three divine commands, and Solomon was forced to wander from city to city, until he eventually arrived in an Ammonite city where he was forced to work in the king's kitchens. Solomon gained a chance to prepare a meal for the Ammonite king, which the king found so impressive that the previous cook was sacked and Solomon put in his place; the king's daughter, Naamah, subsequently fell in love with Solomon, but the family (thinking Solomon a commoner) disapproved, so the king decided to kill them both by sending them into the desert. Solomon and the king’s daughter wandered the desert until they reached a coastal city, where they bought a fish to eat, which just happened to be the one which had swallowed the magic ring. Solomon was then able to regain his throne and expel Asmodeus. (The element of a ring thrown into the sea and found back in a fish's belly also appeared in Herodotus' account of Polycrates, the tyrant of Samos from c. 538 BC to 522 BC.)
In another familiar version of the legend of the Seal of Solomon, Asmodeus disguises himself. In some myths, he's disguised as King Solomon himself, while in more frequently heard versions he's disguised as a falcon, calling himself Gavyn (Gavinn or Gavin), one of King Solomon’s trusted friends. The concealed Asmodeus tells travelers who have ventured up to King Solomon's grand lofty palace that the Seal of Solomon was thrown into the sea. He then convinces them to plunge in and attempt to retrieve it, for if they do they would take the throne as king.

Obviously, he got better.

'Course, this is legend...The wiki article I snagged that from doesn't even have a source. :/

Justice4243 · 2013-03-31 16:08:27

More random Judaism demon talk:

A group of Angels known as the Watchers started complaining to God about all the sinning humans are wont to do so God bet them that if they went down and had to deal with all the temptations humans had to, they'd likely sin it up worse than mankind.

The Angels took that bet and proceeded to loose their (now) goddamned minds and started coveting the heck out of women. They also taught humans how to make weapons and war, plus other frivolities like make-up and jewelry. Eventually two-hundred of these "rebel angels" rose up to get their asses kicked by the still holy angels and God created what I believe is the first recorded instance of a fire burning eternally to punish some of these angels.

The interesting distinction I've noticed is that causing humans to sin seems to be a common theme of fallen angels whereas demons or malevolent spirit entities that don't seem to have an angelic origin seem more concerned with directly harming humans.

I don't think this is an intentional differentiation anyone has tried to make, just an interesting occurrence in Hebrew myth.

Hexartes · 2013-03-31 16:11:15

Justice42 said:
More random Judaism demon talk:
A group of Angels known as the Watchers started complaining to God about all the sinning humans are wont to do so God bet them that if they went down and had to deal with all the temptations humans had to, they'd likely sin it up worse than mankind.
The Angels took that bet and proceeded to loose their (now) goddamned minds and started coveting the heck out of women. They also taught humans how to make weapons and war, plus other frivolities like make-up and jewelry. Eventually two-hundred of these "rebel angels" rose up to get their asses kicked by the still holy angels and God created what I believe is the first recorded instance of a fire burning eternally to punish some of these angels.

The interesting distinction I've noticed is that causing humans to sin seems to be a common theme of fallen angels whereas demons or malevolent spirit entities that don't seem to have an angelic origin seem more concerned with directly harming humans.

I don't think this is an intentional differentiation anyone has tried to make, just an interesting occurrence in Hebrew myth.

That's a really cool story.

Justice4243 · 2013-03-31 16:39:16

Enoch is worth a read if you're interested. I think some of the stuff with Azazel (head Watcher turned fallen Angel) is covered in other stories as well, but Enoch's probably the most well known and influential.

The first three parables are interesting, at least. The forth section of the book covers a 364 day calendar system and is only really enjoyable if one is REALLY into calendar systems.

I just thought it was interesting in that the fall of man is often attributed to a fallen angel and then much of the other sinful stuff from mankind was also attributed to angels.

We still have murder, though...

Sredni Vashtar · 2013-03-31 17:34:04

While the Book of Enoch is really cool—I use Baraqiel as an antagonist in my story at one point—I kind of prefer the disturbing ambiguity of the sole canon verse about the man.

"Enoch walked with God, and then he was not, for God took him."

No "and he passed away" or "fell to illness" or just "died." No, Enoch ceased to exist. Because God took him.

That is the most portentous turn of phrase in the whole Bible, in my honest opinion. There is no explanation and no follow-up. It just is, and what it is is just plain spooky and weird. Enoch walked with God. Then he was not. God took him. End of story. Good night.

Biblical canon is terrifying.

Obā-san · 2013-03-31 17:39:27

"Enoch walked with God, and then he was not, for God took him."

yeah it was god's b-day, He took him to applebee's, the food was crap, obnoxious waitstaff were smote, bad time all around

Imipolex G · 2013-03-31 18:19:26

That is a rather mysterious verse.

Only other Bible verse I can think of that I like as much is John 18:38

Viani · 2013-03-31 20:37:46

Are the Watchers the Nephilim?

RocketRunner · 2013-03-31 20:42:22

Yeah, the Egrigori were Nephilim.

Demons are cooler than Angels

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Zechariah 5:9

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