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Star Wars: The Last Jedi

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  • AlirozAliroz
    edited 2017-12-18 18:57:22
    ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    Spoiler:
    The Jedi continue their long tradition of being prankmasters.

    Spoiler:
    Bill Weasley and the telegram guy from Lincoln continue to be murderous jerks.

    Spoiler:
    Rey continues to take useful items and abandoned valuables without asking permission.
  • AlirozAliroz
    edited 2017-12-18 18:57:57
    ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    Spoiler:
    For the very last time, the day is saved by Skywalker the Jedi from Tattooine and Skywalker the royal senator gal.

    Spoiler:
    For the very last time, Admiral Giel Ackbar has to see of ships full of good men sacrificed to buy crucial time.

    Spoiler:
    For the very last time, that pure sky-blue laser blade shines as bright as hope.
  • AlirozAliroz
    ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    Spoiler:
    Holdo remembers the last line of dialogue of our fearless leader Prince Jake Berenson in book 54.

    Spoiler:
    Scumbag casino guys do not remember how whips are actually used in horse racing.

    Spoiler:
    The girl from the Ewoks movies does not remember to bring a jetpack, and somewhere, in the Star Wars afterlife, misters Fett and Fett are laughing at her.
  • KlinotaxisKlinotaxis
    edited 2017-12-25 01:15:00
    kill living beings
    the previous movie was like hey let's do star wars again

    this one was like no that's stupid let's fuck everything up

    at least as far as i read it. it would explain why some people hate it i've heard. but i was never very enamored of the original movies, so i'm a fan. i was hoping ren's "let's end everything" bit meant he was going to reform the First Order to be less obviously evil and add some moral ambiguity, since it seems like he really did work through some of his issues, but oh well.

    also the thing with the vice admiral bugged me for stupid plot hole reasons: 

    Spoiler:
    of course they have to go through that as part of the "well maybe desperate suicide attacks aren't actually a good way to operate" deal, but in-universe-like she could have just like, clued dameron in before he did something stupid like he was obviously going to. and if you could do that with warp drive they probably should do kamikaze attacks more often (like, at least for those two frigates that got destroyed?) even if they wouldn't be as effective as with the whole cruiser.

    really my favorite thing was that they had this huge epic finale with everything getting destroyed, and then five minutes later they do it again, but more pathetic, because they've blown each other to bits
  • OdradekOdradek
    My dreams exceed my real life
    Cyndel’s still alive and will meet Wicket again I guarantee it
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    i get the feeling that this movie was not very gratifying by itself but did a lot of worldbuilding work
  • MetaFourMetaFour
    For once, or maybe twice, I was in my prime.
    Sort of the opposite, if anything. It's a good movie in a vacuum, but the hardcore Star Wars fans disliked the implications of the worldbuilding. And certain of Luke Skywalker's actions contradicted how they believed he should act.
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    Well I guess I'm not a "hardcore Star Wars fan", haha.  But it seemed to me that the movie was
    Spoiler:
    frequently tragic and didn't really have any really strongly gratifying moments
    , while it set the stage for many other things yet to come.
  • MetaFourMetaFour
    For once, or maybe twice, I was in my prime.
    This a good article. https://www.tor.com/2017/12/21/star-wars-vice-admiral-holdo-and-our-expectations-for-female-military-power/
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    MetaFour said:

    This a good article. https://www.tor.com/2017/12/21/star-wars-vice-admiral-holdo-and-our-expectations-for-female-military-power/

    That's an interesting take on the story.

    I originally read it from an emotional perspective, seeing the story as
    Spoiler:
    a series of disasters and failures one after another, thinning the ranks of the Resistance, failing to recruit Luke, almost turning Rey to the dark side, failing to disable the tracker, and of course all the military defeats and/or pyrrhic victories depending on how you see them.  If there was hope it was something that came at the end, with Luke's dramatic last stand against Kylo Ren and the whole "democratization of the Force" idea.


    But this is another interesting take on the article.  And I think this article is consistent with the observation (correct me if I'm wrong) that
    Spoiler:
    had it not been for the attempt to disable the tracker, Holdo's plan might have cost only her own life rather than of a number of her fellow Resistance members whose escape pods were lost.

  • MetaFourMetaFour
    For once, or maybe twice, I was in my prime.
    glennmagusharvey said:

    And I think this article is consistent with the observation (correct me if I'm wrong) that

    Spoiler:
    had it not been for the attempt to disable the tracker, Holdo's plan might have cost only her own life rather than of a number of her fellow Resistance members whose escape pods were lost.

    Yeah, I think that's Rian Johnson's intended reading of that subplot.
  • TatterhoodTatterhood
    edited 2018-01-04 18:48:29
    That's certainly what I got out of it. I think that was one of the things that bothered people about the movie. Personally it didn't ruin the whole thing for me but I do wish that
    Spoiler:
    Holdo had been given a better reason for refusing to tell anyone her plan. Like, that article talks about how one might worry about a traitor on board...what if Holdo thinks there's a traitor, and thus has an excellent justification for keeping her plan to as few people as possible? Things still turn out tragic, but it's the unavoidable sort of tragedy that I find a little easier to stomach than the "everything goes to hell because our heroes are fucking morons" kind.

    (Of course, nothing in the movie actually contradicts the above.)

    Like people have defended it on the grounds that it's actually quite realistic for horrible tragedies to happen because people are dumb and suck at communicating, but since when the hell is Star Wars supposed to be realistic?

    By the way is it really worth tagging spoilers in here? This thread is pretty empty if you're reading it without clicking em, and I know that for me at least I avoided opening the thread at all before seeing the movie.
  • MetaFourMetaFour
    For once, or maybe twice, I was in my prime.
    Yeah. As written, Holdo's reasons for not sharing the plan from the beginning only make sense in retrospect. If she had said she was worried there was a First Order mole aboard the ship, that would have made sense from the get-go, and would have eliminated most of the complaints about her role in the plot, I suspect.
  • Section42LSection42L
    edited 2018-01-04 18:52:02
    We can do anything if we do it together.
    Some of the comments to that post you link seem to think that if her speech about hope had been rewritten to be more specific, that would’ve solved a lot of the problems people have with that part of the plot, and I’m inclined to agree with them.
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    Yeah, I don't think I'd characterize Holdo as a particularly great communicator.  Strategist, perhaps.
  • KlinotaxisKlinotaxis
    kill living beings
    even if she didn't want to announce it publically, she could have just told dameron, who would have had to be one fucking good spy, and was obviously going to be insubordinate if he didn't know anything
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    this is interesting

    and incidentally touches on a more general beef i have with the anime fandom too


  • BeeBee
    edited 2018-02-24 23:16:29
    So I haven't seen this movie yet, but I did have a pretty vivid dream last night about watching it.

    So Han Solo, who I guess got better, is on Tatooine with Kylo Ren.  Han shoots mosquitoes with his blaster.  Luke has a tropical villa on Tatooine, and he's hosting this nice Vietnamese family who insists on doing all the cooking for a party.  The food is weirdly CG instead of real, but it's like FFXV levels of hunger inducing.  Rey is there but it's not really clear why and she doesn't really do anything.  Link shows up in Gerudo drag, climbs up one of the nearby bluffs, and vanishes for the rest of the movie.  Kylo Ren tries to kill everyone but gets chewed out by the elderly Vietnamese matron who doesn't speak a word of English, and then he flies off in his hot air balloon.  The big plot twist is that Kylo Ren had his leg amputated once, but it grew back because the Solos funded cancer research, and you should too.  A montage of the Jamaican bobsled team plays over the credits.

    Without spoiling too much, can you at least tell me how close this is
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    edited 2018-02-24 23:21:17
    I think this is the most appropriate and only response to this:

    image

    ..but, I'll admit, it was amusing to read.
  • BeeBee
    edited 2018-02-24 23:30:23
    Every word?  Wait, you mean I WASN'T dreaming?  Oh God, what was in that chicken carbonara last night?!
  • AlirozAliroz
    edited 2018-02-26 16:56:50
    ...And even when your hope is gone
    move along, move along, just to make it through
    (2015 self)
    Bee said:

    Luke has a tropical villa on Tatooine,

    As a kid I always assumed that, a couple years after Return of the Jedi, when all the problems were fixed and the galaxy was at peace, the Skywalker family moved back to the Lars Homestead on Tatooine and lived happily ever after as moisture farmers.



    Similarly, I always assumed that Cinderella and her prince kicked out the evil Stepmom and Stepsisters and lived at Cinderella's Chauteau, rather than at the Castle.

    It just felt right to me, a happy ending should include the heroes going home in the end, so the story can end where it began.

    So, clearly, Harry Potter should have ended with Harry living at 4 Privet Drive, and most Elder Scrolls games should end with you going back home to jail where you belong, by 7-year-old-Rozzy logic.
  • BeeBee
    edited 2018-02-26 17:21:59
    Dude, no happy endings happen on Tatooine.  It's a horrendously failed state with basically no natural resources to speak of.  Like, the whole backstory is they found ore in a zombie ecosystem barely capable of still producing oxygen, started a mining rush before properly evaluating it, then it died almost immediately because the ore was so shit that even if you survived the horrible climate and oversized wildlife, none of it was worth lifting off the planet, much less hauling back from the Outer Rim.  The hutts moved in on the premise of supporting the area, then turned it into a crime economy that runs on drawing rural farmers into the city on the premise of earning enough to leave the planet then scamming them into literal slavery.

    Like, this is why it's a smuggler haven with sandcrawlers and dead droids everywhere.  It's not the kind of place where outsiders exploit its abundant natural resources, abuse its people for generations, then racist grandpas call it a shithole.  It's an actual shithole.  The place would've died more mercifully if Tatoo II crashed through the planet instead of getting captured to slow-boil away its biosphere.
  • OdradekOdradek
    My dreams exceed my real life
    Aliroz said:


    Bee said:

    Luke has a tropical villa on Tatooine,

    As a kid I always assumed that, a couple years after Return of the Jedi, when all the problems were fixed and the galaxy was at peace, the Skywalker family moved back to the Lars Homestead on Tatooine and lived happily ever after as moisture farmers.



    Similarly, I always assumed that Cinderella and her prince kicked out the evil Stepmom and Stepsisters and lived at Cinderella's Chauteau, rather than at the Castle.

    It just felt right to me, a happy ending should include the heroes going home in the end, so the story can end where it began.

    So, clearly, Harry Potter should have ended with Harry living at 4 Privet Drive, and most Elder Scrolls games should end with you going back home to jail where you belong, by 7-year-old-Rozzy logic.
    Oh, life on the outside ain't what it used to be. 
    Y'know, the world's gone crazy, 
    and it ain't safe on the streets. 
    Well, it's a drag, I know, 
    there's only one place to go. 
    Baby, back where I come from, 
    I'm comin' home. 
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    Aliroz said:

    when all the problems were fixed and the galaxy was at peace

    but the last Metroid was not in captivity
  • MetaFourMetaFour
    For once, or maybe twice, I was in my prime.
    I like this guy's reading of the themes: https://twitter.com/KaiserNeko/status/1049389779807297537
  • glennmagusharveyglennmagusharvey
    Yeah, it being a downer was definitely the point.

    I guess this guy's interpretation of said downer is just slightly different from mine, but mine is an interpretation of emotional meaning, rather than directly narrative meaning.
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