Discussion of TV Tropes

Beholder · 2012-02-23 00:55:10

Partly because "being a horrible person with horrible opinions" has generally not been a valid ban reason;

I still not think that it is a valid reason for ban, and it disturbs me greatly that so many people want it to become one.

Having said that, I am thinking of starting to post on TVT again, even though I am still looking for alternatives. Yes, I must be crazy. Because I know fully well that posting on current TVT would not help my current loneliness - it is no longer home. But it might still be ocassionally interesting.

millercross · 2012-02-23 01:05:40

Only time any complaints were justified were when the avatars were literally painful on the eyes.

That seems a bit over the top. I mean, yes, trivial thing, we've already established that and I agree that it is pretty unimportant, but if you don't like something, you should be allowed to say and express so. If you can explain why and then justify that, then it's your admin's duty to consider whether they should or shouldn't act on it.

Irene · 2012-02-23 01:39:39

Well, it was the only non-trivial one that had a point. One game was heavily affected, but even WAOA could easily take care of it by posting more than one picture at a time.(before the rule about linking only one picture came up)

We're on the same page here. :P

lee4hmz · 2012-02-23 03:57:49

I was reading YF and OTC just now, and I guess the thing that bugs me now is that YF in particular just seems so banal now, like it's no fun to read anymore. Then again, several people I like either went here, don't post as much, or simply disappeared, so...

Anonus · 2012-02-23 03:58:34

It seemed banal to me when I stopped being a regular there.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-23 04:00:43

I only really post in the LGBT thread now in the YF

Unknown · 2012-02-23 04:03:18

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Morven · 2012-02-23 13:33:16

People do tend to go FUCK YOU FAST EDDIE RAEG any time he makes a forum coding change they dislike. Which means pretty much any change at all. Getting this again and again is not conducive to a volunteer, doing-it-for-love coder feeling that it's all that rewarding.

Polite complaining is one thing. People acting like TVT is some service they can feel all entitled over is quite another, and I have little sympathy for those that behave that way.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-23 15:09:21

I've pretty much lost all sympathy for both sides of the argument.

Eddie's reaction to everything it to cover his ears and sing "la la", and everyone else's reaction to Eddie is HE IS INSANE AND STUPID. It's really quite grating that no one seems to acknowledge anyone else in the whole thing is a human being, instead of either "a troll", in Fast Eddie's case, or "an idiot" in the case of people who don't like him.

Further, stuff like this is just annoying. I can surely not be the only one who feels this way?

Unknown · 2012-02-23 15:11:08

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Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-23 15:13:27

I'd like to think that.

Because I prefer wonderposting to....this.

I feel like I'm expected to have some opinion on this "issue" and that taking one side or the other will alienate the side I don't take. But I genuinely don't have one. I don't care about Fast Eddie, I don't use his site anymore.

I suppose it's selfish to expect this entire site to cater to my interests. But it does seem to be everywhere lately.

Unknown · 2012-02-23 15:16:12

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Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-23 15:24:54

So would I.

I should really just stop talking about it. I suppose I'm doing nothing to help, here.

millercross · 2012-02-23 15:48:42

If you're really not interested in the topic, you can do both yourself and everyone else a favour and simply not post. It's annoying to hear everyone complaining about dramaz all the time everyone is discussing something simply because you don't like the subject.

Unknown · 2012-02-23 15:55:49

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Morven · 2012-02-23 17:28:13

It would do Fast Eddie and the forums a lot of good if he stopped reading Hollers like he promised the mods he would. Our job is to deal with the shit so it doesn't stress him out, and give him a break from a side of running the place that he really hates, and is really not good at. He lacks the patience, social skills, and calming skills required to peacefully resolve things. Problem is, he has trouble letting go and letting other people steer the boat.

Obā-san · 2012-02-23 17:31:56

We've noticed.

Misery · 2012-02-23 17:35:56

Yeah.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-23 17:58:10

"he has trouble letting go and letting other people steer the boat."

Of course he does, you all lack the prerequisite beards for boat steering.

Obā-san · 2012-02-23 18:05:27

I just noticed that tattoo.

....Is that a ship's wheel?

Mr. Darcy · 2012-02-23 18:16:53

Yeah, Morven, what are you thinking? He's called Fast Eddie because he makes the Pequod go fast.

Morven · 2012-02-23 18:24:28

He's told about the tattoos before, though it does require one to believe his tales. I'm undecided; they're good stories and he's a pretty good storyteller, but I honestly can't tell how much is truth. Some seem pretty far-fetched, but then again he really DOES live in the Bahamas (or at least edits from there; his IPs are all from a local ISP).

Viani · 2012-02-23 18:27:29

So would I.
I should really just stop talking about it. I suppose I'm doing nothing to help, here.

IHKaTt, Nothing you've said really helped when it comes to TVT, but other things sure.

The only thing I dislike about TVT is....the Zettai Ryouiki trope page.

Morven · 2012-02-23 18:37:32

What don't you like about it?

I mean, it really is a thing, even if the page is sub-optimal.

Obā-san · 2012-02-23 18:38:58

All the fanservice pages give me the willies.

Sexuality and "preferences" should be either kept to yourself or, possibly, talked with with friends, not something you should write down for all to see.

Morven · 2012-02-23 18:49:46

Meh, personally, I don't give a damn either way.

However, the trope pages aren't supposed to be about our sexualities. They're supposed to be about the way that sexual topics are used & played with in media. This includes fanservice, which is defined pretty much as deliberately pandering to fans' fetishes (sexual or otherwise). Examples should only be blatant examples of a work deliberately pandering to such things. E.g. Quentin Tarantino's foot fetish influences his works enough that it's quite noticeable in his films; and I'm sure people have watched anime and wondered where the hell all the underwear-flashing comes from and if that's normal in Japan, and why they have such a thing for over-the-knee socks / stockings showing bare leg at the top.

It should not be lists of every time some obsessive troper happens to see a glimpse of underwear on TV.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-23 18:52:38

"lists of every time some obsessive troper happens to see a glimpse of underwear on TV."

Obā-san · 2012-02-23 18:54:25

My problem with TVT is that it wasn't what I thought it would be.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-23 18:55:55

^ What exactly did you think it would be?

v You know what I read? "Free candy!"

Mr. Darcy · 2012-02-23 18:56:06

"It should not be lists of every time some obsessive troper happens to see a glimpse of underwear on TV."

Exactly. Panty shots may be an actual thing in Japan, but it's hard to read the page without thinking it's edited by a troper who sounds like someone's Peter Lorre impression from his smart phone as he sits in the van he offers candy from.

Obā-san · 2012-02-23 18:57:55

I thought it would be about in-depth literary analysis, generally done in an informal tone.

Morven · 2012-02-23 19:00:27

That is one of the things that I think's wrong with the "Eww subjective! Shunt it off to its own page" thing. Anything at all in-depth or thoughtful will inevitably have some degree of subjectivity about it. The thing that's the problem is not subjective opinions, it's stupid opinions and me-too thoughtless bashing or raving.

Obā-san · 2012-02-23 19:03:25

If you take off everything subjective you're left with a witty (*Or Not*) description and a list of recurring themes.

And the responses of "LOL that's what literary analysis is!!!!1111!" I've gotten when I've brought it up on TVT have been....

Unhappiness inducing.

Obā-san · 2012-02-23 19:04:15

Now for some pretty music to lighten the mood:

Viani · 2012-02-23 22:57:27

What don't you like about it?

The fact that Fingerless Gloves, Long Gloves, Hoop Earrings, Leather Dress Collars, Antique High-Heel Red Doll Shoes, Panty Hemi-Clips, Dress Arm-Drapes, Lavallieres, Balconette Bras and Eyebrow piercings do not get their own page, but the long-sock thing does because it's a "fanservice" thing, and has graphs, books and studies based on them to merit their own page.

Yarrun XIX · 2012-02-23 23:25:41

What bothers me about the Zettai Ryouiki page is that it feels absolutely useless.

I tried to read through the entire blasted page so I could make an assessment of it on BTL. The whole page, to me, comes off as 'People (generally women) wear high socks'. I think I only found two examples in the anime page that felt like the Absolute Territory actually had some meaning in the work rather than just being the artist's choice of character costume. It's even worse when it's applied to western media, where Zettai Ryouiki doesn't have that kind of impact. The best example of this would be the following:

Probably every version of Pippi Longstocking wears it, Grade B and upwards. And we're still talking about a franchise for kids.

So, just because the protagonist of a children's book series has long socks and a short skirt, it automatically qualifies for a fanservice trope and deserves a chastising for having such naughty material.

I'm not even sure if I can go in and edit that entry out because, according to the laconic definition ("Bare skin between short skirt and thigh-highs."), it still fits.

---

I'm also kind of bugged because it has its own analysis page, with its very own link to an academic essay on the topic, while most analysis pages are either non-existent or struggling. In fact, I think it's one of the largest ones that I've seen so far, save for the MLP one. But that's just wikigroaning.

Viani · 2012-02-23 23:38:15

Around ??% of the examples (There's around 195+ instances of (this girl wears long socks) on that page, and I suck at math and can't generate a ratio or percentage of how much actually doesn't help)

But at it's core, judging by its examples, it goes by a "character is wearing X", so I think one of the main reasons why other "character is wearing X" Tropes can't be made, like one for long gauntlet-style gloves or leather dress collars is because, well, Japanese people haven't written a book about them.

I'm sure if they did I could make a page about it, and how it's important to telling the story or having an impact on the story in any way.

Because gauntlet-style gloves are important.

Yarrun XIX · 2012-02-23 23:50:19

I wonder why we don't have a trope for nonstandard piercings. It seems like it would have more of an impact on a story than Zettai Ryouiki

Unknown · 2012-02-24 00:05:35

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Misery · 2012-02-24 00:11:08

^ This. Completely.

Obā-san · 2012-02-24 00:14:15

Oh, stop whining.

It's flawed in execution, and has some screwed up people, but it has it's nice ones too.

And both of you, how long were you even really there before you went "BAWWW I QUIT U SUCK!!!!!!"

Not that long.

Unknown · 2012-02-24 00:19:11

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millercross · 2012-02-24 01:01:57

What Inane said.

What bothers me about the current state of the forum is that it wasn't always like this. It's true, there were guys who tended to be rather and innecessarily open about their sexual preferences, but for every one of those, there was a Nornagest, a Noimporta and so on (IE: smart people with a sense of humor)

I admittedly got in during the end of those times, but I got to meet Tzetze, Solstace, vandro and many other people who I don't always agree with, but whom I dearly respect.

I complain about the administration simply because I don't like the way things are done there and because I sincerely believe there's space for improvement, if they decided to shed some of their most questionable behaviours and listened to the reasonable part of their userbase (Which, to their credit, they're doing, if ever so slowly) but I can't say the place is dumb.

It'd be like calling this place dumb simply because there are people I dislike here. You have to distance yourself a little from how you feel and analyse and think things through.

lee4hmz · 2012-02-24 01:02:23

Viani: I figure for something to be a trope and not just an observation, you have to be able to play with it -- subvert it, invert it, invoke it, make it work for you. If a page is just entry after entry of something like "yes, she's wearing a skirt and socks" or "yes, this work has rocks in it", then it's probably so broad that all you'll ever get are people saying "this happened" and not "this happened to advance the plot or develop a character".

As for "it must be a trope because someone wrote a paper about it", well...that's no excuse. I could write a 20-page treatise on the effects of a fully-loaded Power Mac G5's exhaust vent on a 2-quart jug of Kool-Aid (OH Y34H) and it still wouldn't be any more worthy of a trope entry, because it's a silly science experiment and not a useful plot device. And if by some accident if did have tropes associated with it, chances are they're already well documented, because really, an incident involving an old computer and a jug of delicious red chemicals isn't all that innovative.

What I'm saying is that Zettai Ryouiki is more of a meme or a cultural phenomenon than a trope, and if it belongs anywhere, it's probably Useful Notes. TVT has never been that great with memes.

Manly McMacho · 2012-02-24 01:26:24

Oh, stop whining.

Didn't you say that exact same thing yesterday?

Anyway, I'm started to think this thread should be shut down. It's nothing but unnecessary snark, nerdrage, opinions pulled straight from everyone's collective asses, pointless bitching and pointless bitching about the pointless bitching.

And dammit superglobe, that thread is a joke. Who gets that angry over a joke. Srsly.

Obā-san · 2012-02-24 01:27:38

Yeah, Notice I said "Stop Whining", not "Stop Being A Hypocrite".

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-24 01:28:46

Who gets that angry over a joke. Srsly.

I get annoyed or stressed (the former in this case), not angry.

I'm rather rarely upset at anything online.

Manly McMacho · 2012-02-24 01:30:11

Stressed? That's at least ten times worse. Jesus Christ dude, step away from the computer.

Anonus · 2012-02-24 01:30:27

Honestly, the reason this thread exists is because without it, most of the stuff in here would likely spread to the rest of the forum (well, some variation on it, anyway), and banning the topic outright would be silly. The snark could stand to be toned down, though.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-24 01:32:34

Stressed? That's at least ten times worse. Jesus Christ dude, step away from the computer.

I am easily stressed out. By things online and off, so "stepping away from the computer" would not work.

Furthermore, what annoyed me earlier today does not annoy me so much now, and I only responded because you asked me a question.

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