Discussion of TV Tropes

Tachyon · 2012-02-14 13:08:35

While I wouldn't exactly describe the SA thread as "deplorable", I agree with Justice that an action being easy or quick doesn't make that action any better in terms of decency.

>Well, anything you do on the internet is simply thought.

Simply communication, a distinction which does matter with regards to something like TVT; we can't ban people for thinking nasty things that they don't articulate, after all, and thoughts kept to yourself are unlikely to hurt others.

>Your decisions are your own, and I respect that. However, personally I an quite sad to hear that you consider your previous attitude misguided.

Sorry to hear that. I maintain that it was, though. For one thing, to say that Tongpu didn't cause trouble was simply false; some tropers did respond with shock or anger when he'd praise serial killers or make fun of grieving parents or detail how he'd enjoy torturing a woman if given the opportunity. It was mainly new tropers, although Myrmidon made a habit of it, and they tended to get thumped for it.

For another, I don''t think you can reasonably class any of his opinions I just listed as "civil".

I think you have to examine why the no personal attacks rule exists. If it's because incivility is intrinsically bad, well, bigotry and violence-advocacy is not civil. If it's because they cause offence, well, so do the kinds of things he would say, probably moreso than most personal attacks. If it's because they cause disruption, again, the same could be said of Tongpu's comments; sure, we could thump those who responded angrily, but equally we could thump people for responding angrily to personal attacks, and doing that while leaving the attacks unthumped would be plainly unfair.

Of course, Tongpu wasn't actually banned for his views but rather specific behaviour, so one could argue the point is moot, but I think this applies generally. We don't thump, say, They Call Me Tomu, in spite of his worldview self-confessedly including the belief that humanity would be better off dead, because he doesn't actually think that wiping out all of humanity is a good idea. Tongpu was literally pro-murder, and I do think I was utterly, one could well say appallingly, wrong to tolerate that.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-14 13:13:49

I agree with the above that said tropers behaviors and actions made him more trouble than it was worth to let him stick around.

Actually, I didn't know he was banned. But I guess that explains why I haven't seen him in a spell.

Honestly, the idea that a site has views it simply will not tolerate is fine with me.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-14 13:44:05

Honestly, the idea that people are defending this type of behavior is pretty surprising to me.

Well at least I'm not the only one who feels that way.

millercross · 2012-02-14 13:46:15

I don't think that their actions are decent or indecent because they're easy to perform. I just think that mockery's a thing that happens and that treating it as something indecent and as if the people behind it are horrible seems a bit over the top, all things considered.

And I find it funny how most of the people who weren't mocked tend to be enraged for the people who were mocked, like Lucky Revenant a while back.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-14 13:47:24

I don't think "it happens all the time" is really the best counterpoint.

A lot of things happen all the time, that doesn't mean I have to like them.

millercross · 2012-02-14 13:52:02

Why should it be a matter of liking or not liking things? Whatever happened to the concept of indifference?

Tachyon · 2012-02-14 13:52:25

I don't think they're horrible people, but I can't say I'm fond of the thread.

>And I find it funny how most of the people who weren't mocked tend to be enraged for the people who were mocked, like Lucky Revenant a while back.

That was how I felt when I found out what CrazyGoggs was doing. I was actually downright furious.

Looking back I feel like I overreacted, though.

Viani · 2012-02-14 13:52:58

I like Looney Tunes.

I dislike Tom and Jerry.

I am indifferent to Tiny Toon Adventures.

see how easy that was?

And on the topic of "is it online stalking and a waste of free time"?

As somebody who participates in "mockery of despicable people online for my own amusement" activity, I would like to say it's not as devoted as you think it is. I don't have my homepage set to Google Autosearch for the name of the person I dislike above all others, nor do I make slideshow videos of stupid comments, although I greatly appreciate it when others do so. I just like to relate to other people who hate the person I do.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-14 13:55:17

Why should it be a matter of liking or not liking things? Whatever happened to the concept of indifference?

I could be indifferent, and made an active effort to be indifferent for some time.

Then I realized that I genuinely had problems with the way that the internet in general likes to laugh at people for their shortcomings.

So no, I don't like it, and I'm not indifferent.

Looking back I feel like I overreacted, though.

Do you actually feel that way or do you only feel that way because other people told you to?

I dislike Tom and Jerry.

You monster.

Tachyon · 2012-02-14 13:55:54

I like some tropers. I like some goons. I think some tropers and some goons behave in ways of which I don't approve sometimes.

I am indifferent to fark.com.

^ I genuinely feel that I overreacted. I still don't like what CrazyGoggs did, but literally all it was was reading out some publically published remarks in silly voices and without context. My reaction was certainly disproportionate to that, not to mention rather hypocritical since I was totally fine with what he was doing before I found out he was singling out people by name.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-14 13:58:05

And y'know what, hey. I follow the guy on Google+, might as well quote the Dalai Lama.

If we can manage to refrain from harming others in our everyday actions and words, we can start to give more serious attention to actively doing good, and this can be a source of great joy and inner confidence. We can benefit others through our actions by being warm and generous toward them, by being charitable, and by helping those in need.

Irene · 2012-02-14 13:58:31

Honestly, I'm just plain out indifferent. Unless they actually attack people, I just prefer to discuss it as a whole.

I don't agree with their views half the time, but if a person cannot honestly do anything but flame them for having a view you don't like, why seriously even respond?

I get some views are sick, demented, etc. I don't want to hear it either. I just think banning is truly a last resort and should be considered carefully.

millercross · 2012-02-14 13:59:10

That was how I felt when I found out what CrazyGoggs was doing. I was actually downright furious.
Looking back I feel like I overreacted, though.

Exactly how I felt, actually. In fact, the reason I brought Lucky up was because he was kind of the reason I decided to chill about it. I mean, he was the one being mocked and he just shrugged it off because he knew that those posts they dug up didn't reflect who he was now.

Of course, that's not something you can apply to every person who was mentioned in those videos, but my point is that even he was somewhat aware of how self destructive he was once and regardless of him thinking these guys were idiots for picking those posts, he also was aware that the person he once was wasn't exactly likeable. Or at least, he didn't like him, anyway.

Viani · 2012-02-14 14:00:29

Still waiting for the Vorpy/Tnu video. I think he quit working on it actually or he got sick of me PMing him on Youtube to make a Vorpy video.

millercross · 2012-02-14 14:00:42

TL;DR: I miss Lucky, he was the best bro

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-14 14:01:21

^ I genuinely feel that I overreacted. I still don't like what CrazyGoggs did, but literally all it was was reading out some publically published remarks in silly voices and without context. My reaction was certainly disproportionate to that, not to mention rather hypocritical since I was totally fine with what he was doing before I found out he was singling out people by name.

Yes, that was all he did, wasn't it?

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-14 14:06:04

Lucky still posts IIRC

millercross · 2012-02-14 14:08:47

Lucky left. He came back a coupla days ago. It doesn't matter, though, because I still talk to him over email. But I miss him posting on TvT, because...well, the same reason I miss other people who I always liked seeing over there. Because they lent a degree of sanity and intelligence to discussion, because they actually attempted to not be backhanded about things and so on.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-14 14:11:09

Are you sure it was a couple of days ago because I saw him post before during and after my enforced holiday

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-14 14:15:09

Anyway, the merger of Cross dressing and Transgendered tropes into "Transgendered tropes" is annoying me because well frankly there is little to no overlap between the two.

Viani · 2012-02-14 14:15:51

There was like 3 people who were bitching into the scorned heavens about those two tropes and everyone just agreed to fuse them to get them to shut up.

Tachyon · 2012-02-14 14:15:56

Looks like Lucky pops in once or twice per month, makes a few comments in the megathreads and then leaves.

@Superglobe More or less, yes. I mean, OK, his intent was clearly to publically ridicule people, which was why I was so angry, but he was only using comments they themselves had made. Hardly a nice thing to do, but there was no call to be as angry and appalled as I felt (I was actually rather creeped out as well, I recall).

@Whale That does seem to reflect a lack of awareness for nuance. On the other hand, TVT does deal mainly in archetypes and stereotypes, and the concepts are certainly linked in the public perception.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-14 14:17:36

There was like 3 people who were bitching into the scorned heavens about
those two tropes and everyone just agreed to fuse them to get them to
shut up.

Why were they bitching?

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-14 14:18:05

@Superglobe More or less, yes. I mean, OK, his intent was clearly to publically ridicule people, which was why I was so angry, but he was only using comments they themselves had made. Hardly a nice thing to do, but there was no call to be as angry and appalled as I felt (I was actually rather creeped out as well, I recall).

You don't have a right to be creeped out?

I understand this is all online, where information is easily obtainable, but frankly, that someone would put even five minutes into finding that information out for no other reason than "lulz" speaks pretty poorly of them. I'd call it creepy, certainly.

Tachyon · 2012-02-14 14:19:57

I have a right to be, I just think I was more upset than necessary. Is that a big deal?

I do agree that that speaks rather poorly of a person. Like I said, I don't like what he did.

Obā-san · 2012-02-14 14:21:08

Everything I do online is either:

1.) Talking with friends

2.) Finding musicy stuff

3.) Finding lulz.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-14 14:22:29

Everything I do is either:

1.) Talking with friends

2.) Finding musicy stuff

3.) Finding lulz.

And?

Viani · 2012-02-14 14:23:04

I understand this is all online, where information is easily obtainable,
but frankly, that someone would put even five minutes into finding that
information out for no other reason than "lulz" speaks pretty poorly of
them. I'd call it creepy, certainly.

the same could be said of your comments towards GuitarBizarre.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-14 14:23:16

That does seem to reflect a lack of awareness for nuance. On the other
hand, TVT does deal mainly in archetypes and stereotypes, and the
concepts are certainly linked in the public perception.

But its supposed to be a resource right? Is it to much to ask for it to be factual?

Misery · 2012-02-14 14:23:17

Finding lulz? Yes!

Obā-san · 2012-02-14 14:23:44

I dunno.

I need more sleep.

There was a point, it'll come back to me...

^^TVT is a horrible thing to use as a resource.

Viani · 2012-02-14 14:25:13

factual?

on a wiki devoted to fictional things...that's a bit of a stretch.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-14 14:26:18

the same could be said of your comments towards GuitarBizarre.

How so? I don't stalk the man, and I don't dedicate any of my time to humiliating him.

Now, I certainly don't like him, and do consider him something of an example as to things that are tolerated on the internet that really should not be, but I don't see how it's at all similar to what's being discussed here.

Misery · 2012-02-14 14:26:30

TVT does not equal resource.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-14 14:26:37

Okay fine

Is it to much to ask for the correct terms to be used?

Obā-san · 2012-02-14 14:26:50

It has no sources, and has very few pages I'd consider unbiased and informative.

And most of those are work pages that are the pet projects of 3 or 4 dedicated tropers.

Irene · 2012-02-14 14:29:06

If you went out of your way to find something to complain about for a specific person, that can easily be called stalking. Being "not as bad" as others doesn't justify the action any more than the next guy.

Plus, most of us do it anyway, so eh.

Obā-san · 2012-02-14 14:29:54

If you have to go out of your way you're trying to hard.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-14 14:31:07

I don't go out of my way. Every example of GuitarBizarre's behavior I've ever used is something that I remember from the brief time we both posted in the original IJBM.

Irene · 2012-02-14 14:32:00

Depends the situation. And depends the person. It's not like everybody keeps a record of everybody's bad moments.(save maybe SA)

And yeah, you sometimes really have to. It's creepy either way. No disagreeing with that.

^ But can you cite it? You gotta go out of your way to cite it. You're also going out of your way to list those exact examples either way.

Viani · 2012-02-14 14:32:01

Today I feel like going into the TVT's Valentine's day thread and see how miserable and worthless the comments people are going to spout will be, as a form of entertainment. Does that count as the same thing?

millercross · 2012-02-14 14:32:19

on a wiki devoted to fictional things...that's a bit of a stretch.

While TvT is dedicated to fiction, it also supposedly studies it and describes it using concepts that authors take into account.

Also, I should remind you that art reflects reality.

Viani · 2012-02-14 14:33:13

Also, I should remind you that art reflects reality.

Gurren Lagaan disagrees.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-14 14:33:23

Today I feel like going into the TVT's Valentine's day thread and see how miserable and worthless the comments people are going to spout will be, as a form of entertainment. Does that count as the same thing?

Are you asking me? Because I'd say it does.

Tachyon · 2012-02-14 14:33:48

TVT is intended as a resource, and is apparently used as such by some.

And Whale, if it's supposed to be cataloguing fictional stereotypes, those aren't supposed to be factual, are they? I do think we could do more to distinguish between fact and fiction on there, but too much and it gets branded as "soapboxing", which makes that rather difficult.

>I certainly don't like him, and do consider him something of an example as to things that are tolerated on the internet that really should not be

Some goons perceive many tropers the same way. Possibly including Guitar Bizarre, I guess; I haven't followed that thread all the way through but he seems the type to get mentioned there.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-14 14:37:35

Some goons perceive many tropers the same way. Possibly including Guitar Bizarre, I guess; I haven't followed that thread all the way through but he seems the type to get mentioned there.

The difference between myself and them is that I do not waste time cataloging the things Guitar Bizarre has said on TVTropes and wherever else he might frequent, for the purpose of creating my own personal lulz archives, or for the purpose of preaching to everyone how HORRIBLE THIS PERSON IS.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-14 14:37:59

Gurren Lagaan disagrees.

Whose dat?

And Whale, if it's supposed to be cataloguing fictional stereotypes,
those aren't supposed to be factual, are they? I do think we could do
more to distinguish between fact and fiction on there, but too much and
it gets branded as "soapboxing", which makes that rather difficult.

Theres a difference between distinguishing fact from fiction and lumping two separate things together because you're too lazy to do some basic research. But hey, we could lump Alternative history tropes and Time travel tropes together because they have more in common than Cross dressing and transgenderism.

millercross · 2012-02-14 14:39:01

Gurren Lagaan disagrees.

I'd argue that regardless of how over the top it is, a lot of the themes in TTGL are quite relatable to reality, specifically, what it's like to grow up and become an adult.

Of course, this is all within the context of mechas and explosions, so I guess it isn't exactly that obvious.

millercross · 2012-02-14 14:39:27

Also, Gitbiz's a goon.

Misery · 2012-02-14 14:44:26

never mind

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