Discussion of TV Tropes

Beholder · 2012-02-12 14:40:32

Totally unrelated, but since I still read the fora (blasted addiction) even though I no longer post, today I hollered to the mods for the very first time. Seriously, never felt the need to do it before

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 14:47:02

I saw, and thank you for reporting that.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-12 14:56:12

Sigh, my question got igroned in the TRS thread

Irene · 2012-02-12 15:02:29

Which one?

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-12 15:05:19

I mean that they should only be renamed if they do actually cause problems

Then I asked, what does that mean because I dont have a clue

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 15:07:33

If they're causing confusion or being misused or underused, I presume.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-12 15:08:39

But what if they stop being relevant or become meaningless?

Irene · 2012-02-12 15:14:27

That really can't happen as long as they're used enough.

Relevancy doesn't exist in that way, since a Show/Trope never stops being relevant.

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 15:15:26

Maybe I'm tired, but I'm not really sure what either of you means, sorry. Can you give some examples?

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-12 15:16:19

Like The Brigadier trope

Would you know what it meant if you never saw Doctor Who?

Irene · 2012-02-12 15:21:53

Actually, they clearly agreed with you when they repeated the same thing.

Not sure why they didn't respond to you specifically, but they're on your side. Well, atleast Shima and INUH.

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 15:27:40

The point, as I understand it, is that you shouldn't propose a rename with the sole reason being "I don't like this" or "this name sucks". You need to actually say what's wrong with it.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-12 15:29:40

Oh okay

Justice4243 · 2012-02-12 16:14:20

Several pages back, but I was surprised to see Madrugada singled out (well, along with FE) as a "bad mod", she seems really good when she decides to get involved.

I'm mainly concerned not so much with a mismanagement, but perhaps a lack of management, as I've mentioned.

Though, more mods should have helped in this regard.

It seems to be working, or at least moving things in a good direction.

Kinda hard for me to comment...TVTropes often only gets attention from me after I've caught up with ALL THE THREADS! here. So I'm not as involved as I once was.

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 16:34:05

I'd say Maddy was actually one of the best mods there, but she does seem to catch a lot of flak. I think it's because she's very proactive and outspoken (and strict), so when she does something that people find questionable or objectionable, it's very obvious that she's done it.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-12 16:36:29

Nah its not that

Its because she compared paedophilia to stealing shoes and slagged off someone who reported the FLG thread

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 16:38:19

So she made some mistakes and some dodgy comparisons. She's human, she makes mistakes. I'm surprised nobody's made a list of all the idiotic and otherwise unpopular stuff I've done on there yet.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-12 16:40:09

Because SA and ED and everyone loves you.

Irene · 2012-02-12 16:44:29

I can't remember anything "bad" you did, Meta Four. Hell, still haven't seen an actual bad thing Mad has done.

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 16:48:16

^^ So I keep hearing. But they only see half the picture. Maddy puts a hell of a lot of work into the site, and I'd say she's one of the most capable people there.

^ I'm not Meta Four. Meta's a good mod, but he's a relatively quiet one. I don't think I've ever so much as disagreed with any of his decisions, but he's not as visible generally.

Irene · 2012-02-12 16:50:24

Oh. Wait, then who are you again? I thought you were.

Anonus · 2012-02-12 16:51:45

I used to be kind of sad that Meta Four was less visible than the rest of the mods, because he appeared to share my interest in graphic design. I know that's silly.

Madrugada used to be one of my favorite moderators until people starting making her a target, which has me divided.

^Bobby G.

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 16:52:27

Bobby G's Heapers' Hangout-dwelling alter-ego.

Irene · 2012-02-12 16:58:36

Oh. My bad. You could still visit my chat. :P

Anyway, honestly, I like that Mad's much more tough and out there. I wish Meta Four was as well.

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 17:02:45

It's OK. I did joke that I had an account called Meta Four once, which I guess is how that confusion arose. But I claimed to be the same person as Some Guy, Crazy Goggs, Murky Muse, Helena Barbon, ccoa and Doug Walker in that same post, though, so I didn't really expect to be taken seriously.

Meta is a cutmaster, so his time is obviously kind of divided, but I think he just prefers not to make too much noise anyway. It's not his style.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-12 17:05:48

So I keep hearing. But they only see half the picture. Maddy puts a
hell of a lot of work into the site, and I'd say she's one of the most
capable people there.

Its all about perception, you haven't made any dodgy comparisons or appeared to be a CP apologist

Justice4243 · 2012-02-12 17:07:58

I...I can't imagine very many sentences where "Maddy" and "CP apologist" make a ton of sense together.

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 17:31:14

The infamous posts were made on this page. Relevant posts for the too-lazy-or-possibly-too-incapable-to-actually-read-anything:

Piccolo No 92

Now just to be clear I do not condone the exploitation of children and believe there is no way to justify child molestation or the possession of child pornography which includes actual children used as models and that those who do such things need to be dealt with appropriately within the law.

My questions is however, if it were just drawings done from imagination or a computer game which is completely virtual and no child is actually harmed in the making of it should that be a cause for prosecution?

Madrugada

The question at the base of all this, though, is why is the assumption made that a pedophile who looks at porn is more likely to act it out in real life than someone with another kink who looks at porn of that kink is?

Pedophilia is placed in a whole other category, and the fundamental assumption is that all people who find the idea of sex with children are simply time bombs waiting to explode into full-fledged child-molesters. We don't assume that rape fetishists are all rapists who simply haven't committed a rape yet, but it's just a matter of time.

Captain Brass

Responding to Madrugada's earlier comment that we don't assume all rape fetishists are potential rapists ready to rape if you "just add porn" -no, and they mostly aren't, but isn't there an argument for saying that if a few users of child porn drawings are, that's enough of a risk to restrict access to this stuff? The consequences of child abuse are potentially devastating. Can we really say that the pleasure of even a relatively large group of people who use the porn without harming others should outweigh the pain inflicted by the few people who would?

Madrugada

Captain Brass: The exact same argument could be made about any other form of kink or fetish porn — it might tip someone over the edge into action, therefore it should all be banned, because saving the victims of that one person is worth it. I'm sure that having a crazed shoe-fetishist steal your shoes is traumatic (on the silly end of the scale) and that being raped is extremely traumatic (on the "ok, let's take this seriously" end.) Yet rape-porn isn't banned. Heck, NC (non-consentual) porn is one of the largest sections on Literotica.

Unknown · 2012-02-12 17:31:25

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Ace Rimmer · 2012-02-12 17:34:10

@Bobby G and Squid:

Welcome to the Internet where the truth doesn't matter

Boney · 2012-02-12 17:36:23

I do dislike that she used Literotica as a representation of... anything, really.

Viani · 2012-02-12 17:38:00

I don't think she compared, more than she contrasted or whatever that word is when you go

"Here is A, and then here is B." vs. "Here is A and B, to make AB."

Either way if you really don't understand the question just ask "Did you compare Shoe fetishism to Pedophilia?" and seek your answer so all these ill-gotten assumptions don't form up.

I legitimately thought she did such a thing until I was told it was put out of context.

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 17:38:16

I think it's worth noting that - while I do take issue with lolicon and similar pornographic material involving fictional children, before this gets misconstrued - the argument "what if this drives people to act out what they see?", a.k.a. the hypodermic needle model of media effects, is largely considered to have been debunked decades ago.

Viani · 2012-02-12 17:41:53

I believe...

Lolicons are not "Pedosexual Larvae or Sexual Predator Larvae."

I will never assume any lolicon I meet will have the potential to become a sexual predator because I don't really...know shit about them besides they like flat-chested prepubescent animu girls in their pornography.

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 17:53:10

I think that if you know that they're a lolicon, it's already evident that they have little respect for good taste or the feelings of others, and you don't know what else they might do.

I'm concerned that with some of these people, there really does seem to be this idea that paedophiles are some poor, persecuted group who need to be tolerated, rather than people who, at best, are sick and need help.

Viani · 2012-02-12 18:00:37

The only lolicons I know are DYRE and evilneko, and DYRE is neither depraved or sick from the discussions i've had with him, and just swap the "yaoi" in "rabid yaoi fangirl" with "lolicon" for evilneko.....or pettanko, whatever that is. i'd just rather not sort Lolicon into boxes where they are all treated the same, because not all of them are crazy fucks, but not all of them have reasonable humanity standards, or wish to confine their lolicon-ness to Super Wa Baka Neko Chan fandom, or hoard loli hentai onto hard drives etc. They're just too varied to sort into a "hate them/be wary young ones" box.

After all I got worse things to worry about than people who read Danse in the Vampire Bund for the fan service, such as the ill-omened creeps that dwell facebook and use HTTP-[RQ] to obtain information of real people and what not.

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 18:05:48

Well, I don't know DYRE or evilneko very well, and I don't know if they're actually paedophiles or not. But we have had people on TVT claim that actual paedophiles are persecuted and deserve better treatment; we even had a whole article in the main namespace that was basically paedophile apologia at one point.

Mr_W · 2012-02-12 18:08:08

Wasn't it the Pedo Hunt article before it got revised and Edit-locked?

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 18:09:40

I wish that was the worst, but no, there used to be an article called All Paedophiles Are Child Molesters, which went on about what an awful, unfair stereotype this was.

Anonus · 2012-02-12 18:12:12

No, it was "All Pedophiles Are Child Molesters". It's on the Permanent Red Link Club now.

^Or that.

Justice4243 · 2012-02-12 18:40:25

OK, read the posts.

Nothing there screamed "CP Apologist to me", she just seems to be talking about things in a somewhat objective and detached manner. Though, I can see how one could draw conclusions from that, not every one reads these types of posts and thinks"that person is trying to be objective about this and keeping out their personal feelings on the matter". I've seen plenty types think "this person is TOTALLY condoning what he or she is talking about because they're not savagely attacking the idea."

Anonus · 2012-02-12 18:43:59

It didn't strike me as "apologist" either. I guess it's just easy to take out of context (that's how I'd seen it until now).

Obā-san · 2012-02-12 18:49:38

Mulling it over, I was too harsh on the TVT mods. It seems more like TVT has a perfect storm of a "KILL IT WITH FIRE" sorta policy advocated by FE, combined with "No Negativity" shielding and an unfortunate tendency to attract unfortunate people.

This could be a manageable set of problems by a large staff of outstanding moderators, but TVT has an overstretched staff of average ones.

Princess Alice · 2012-02-12 19:21:20

I was a bit irritated to find out that Katrika and Best Of have mod powers outside of OTC. Not because I don't trust them or anything, but because it demonstrates that Eddie still doesn't understand and/or acknowledge the need for subforum-specific moderators.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-02-12 19:24:02

I'm alright with Katrika and Best Of being made into full mods.

Not so much Shimaspawn.

Obā-san · 2012-02-12 19:31:01

^^Yeah, especially considering when the voting took place people thought it was just for OTC.

Although Best Of is awesome.

PlutoniumFist · 2012-02-12 19:32:31

I thought it was that they have mod powers everywhere, but the focus of their job is supposed to be OTC?

Irene · 2012-02-12 19:34:31

What PlutoniumFist said.

I believe the issue was that FE couldn't get a specific Forum Mod to work, and they were both trustworthy enough to become full ones. As for Shima, he's been extremely helpful and I like the overall choice.

Tachyon · 2012-02-12 19:48:20

Yes, Katrika and Best Of sometimes voluntarily help out with the rest of the forum when OTC is relatively quiet, but their focus is OTC. I think it was just easier to give them mod powers everywhere.

As for shimaspawn, she was appointed because several of us thought she was doing a good job in TRS and she was willing to become a mod, which is fairly similar to how Fighteer got appointed. There was no formal vote before the appointment of most of the other mods either.

Beholder · 2012-02-13 01:36:33

(sigh) I'm still not sure if discussing particular people behind their back is a good thing, but since everyone seems to be doing that and with Bobby G here it is not exactly behind their backs, I might as well throw my own two cents.

Honestly, I don't have problems with moderation on TVT, lest of all with Madrugada. I did not known of the incident described above, but if anything, it makes me respect the guy more for refusing to concede to moral outrage.

The only mods I do have problems with are Fighteer and FE himself, because they let their personal convictions get in the way of fairness.

Anyway, I do not think that mods are incompetent. It is not the mods but a) FE b) The mood of community to which the mods are now forced to concede that disturbs me.

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