Discussion of TV Tropes

Tachyon · 2012-01-18 04:32:44

I don't understand why you would say such a thing. I'm hurt, Beholder.

I'm also rather angry that you would think that of me, but I guess you don't know me that well so I shouldn't take offence.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-18 04:34:33

I don't think TVT morals or standards have much to do with popular opinion, it's just an idea that the site should be open and accommodating to all people regardless of race or sexual preference. In practice, this accepting attitude seems to trickle down to ideas, occasionally even those ideas that seem to to contradict the idea of being "accommodating to all people regardless of race or sexual preference" hence there's something of a dilemma.

That being said, the idea isn't actually that we'll tolerate everyone, and the intolerant tend to run a muck of other rules regarding being a decent poster and what have you.

Furthermore, for better or for worse, the Fora seems to be in place as some sort of support for the wiki. If bigotry and allowing bigotry to exist hurts the community as a whole and then hurts or impedes the wiki, it's understandable that the mods aren't going to be very tolerable about it.

Beholder · 2012-01-18 04:45:54

@Fourier

My apologies. I'll try to explain in PM. Enough to say that I am pretty sure you would disagree with it, but if that would be the mood on the fora, you'd be forced to concede or quit.

Tachyon · 2012-01-18 04:56:15

Assuming we still had Eddie running the place, I just don't see that happening. He would sooner ban every racist on the site than have the forums turn into actual Stormfront, I'm sure of it.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-18 05:00:07

It definitely pretty out there as far as hypotheticals go, the community would have to be completely different from what is now for that to even happen. You would hardly be able to call it the same place.

Beholder · 2012-01-18 05:02:12

The same thing again - sure, but it depends on one guy's personality. The reasoning behind the changes would permit that.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-18 05:08:11

I don't think many are all that comfortable with one man being the sole admin, though, as we discussed in a different thread, replacing Eddie or even finding a co-admin is problematic. There's technical requirements that I don't think any of the mods meet.

Tachyon · 2012-01-18 05:14:10

Yes, that is a problem, Justice. That, and Eddie apparently takes the suggestion that he should let somebody else take the reins as a personal insult, which I guess might be a matter of pride, I dunno.

But Beholderess, he may be one guy, but he's the one guy who runs the site. And the reasoning behind the changes is not to please as many people as possible, but to make the forums a pleasant place for cool people. Since Eddie does not think racists are cool, they don't get to dictate policy.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-18 05:16:31

Considering the members' general opinion on racism, not appealing to racists probably does please the most amount of people.

Tachyon · 2012-01-18 05:18:20

So it's a win all round, then.

Except for racists, natch.

Justice4243 · 2012-01-18 05:20:12

Fuck them, and the Dutch, too, of course.

Krakenpocalypse · 2012-01-18 05:36:43

I've thought that maybe we ought to save a cache of all the tropes in case Eddie snaps and closes the site. But then I realized that none of us know how to work PMWiki's code as well as he does, so even if we do put up "TVT 2.0", we'll have to start from scratch or fiddle with crap we don't know.

Still, I thought it might be a good idea to do so. You never know what's going to happen next.

millercross · 2012-01-18 08:32:45

Wayback Machine should help.

Anonus · 2012-01-18 18:15:33

^^Every wiki page has a "source" button, I think. That might lend itself well to re-working of pages.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 21:04:41

The whole thing about "let's purge the forums of pedos/racists/whathaveyou" still annoys me, honestly. Because I do genuinely think it was mostly an outside thing brought in, not because any of us cared, but because we were being made fun of.

*shrug*

That is still how I see it.

Fuck them, and the Dutch, too, of course.

HEY

Obā-san · 2012-01-18 21:07:51

There were, at most, 4 or 5 of those sorts of people. :/

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 21:09:39

That's not my point.

I think it's far more condemning of TVTropes that, if we had such a problem with pedophiles and racists, that we either didn't notice it or didn't care about it until SA started making fun of us, than the actual presence of those pedophiles and racists ever was or could be.

I'm as guilty as that as any of you, though.

Obā-san · 2012-01-18 21:11:45

WE HAD NO PROBLEM.

We had a couple 'a weirdos, every site has a few.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 21:13:03

Hence the "if".

Personally, I only ever saw a handful of problem posters (I'd say eight or so, if I had to estimate). Given that there are dozens if not scores of regulars, that's not a problem. That's your standard idiot ratio.

But that's just my personal opinion.

Obā-san · 2012-01-18 21:16:32

Why did / do we care abut what SA said / says?

What, is The Saddest Rhino now the world's supreme arbiter of acceptability?

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 21:24:25

I don't know.

Maybe because AOD is a goon, and AOD was a popular troper amongst the old guard for a time?

Maybe because it's an older site and fairly well respected in certain circles?

Maybe we were just bored after ED stopped bothering us?

I really don't know.

Anonus · 2012-01-18 21:27:50

I pick the third one.

Obā-san · 2012-01-18 21:28:03

I find it rather sad that a bunch of grown men (*And Women*) sit around whining about other websites.

Though they do do charity stuff, which means they've done ore good than TVT ever has.

Also, it amuses me that you guys lurk here too. 'Cmon, really?

Tachyon · 2012-01-18 21:30:04

[AOD] pointed out a lot of this stuff ages ago, and we mostly thought he was exaggerating.

It wasn't as bad then as now, though. It's a minority of real nutters, and a whole lot more people being generally ignorant or unpleasant but not actually reprehensible

>I think it's far more condemning of TVTropes that, if we had such a problem with pedophiles and racists, that we either didn't notice it or didn't care about it until SA started making fun of us, than the actual presence of those pedophiles and racists ever was or could be..

I agree, it is pretty damning and I'm not proud of that, but I think it's time we learned from that. We can be better.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 21:31:20

A lot of sites do charity stuff, 'Naney.

SA lurks everywhere. They would have nothing to do, otherwise.

[AOD] pointed out a lot of this stuff ages ago, and we mostly thought he was exaggerating.

I maintain that AOD had no one but himself to blame for people not listening to him. He was insufferable, especially when he was right about something. Which is great for making yourself feel good, but horrible for getting people to actually listen to you.

This is also assuming he was even right. I remember him complaining a lot about sexism in anime, but never very much about pedophiles or what have you.

And I personally think the problem with pedos and racists and yadda yadda is exaggerated immensely. We have them, but not more of them than than is generally found on other sites of a similar size.

millercross · 2012-01-18 21:33:21

You do realize that the section of the site that dedicates itself to mock other sites is merely a subforum that is infamous for being relatively dull and full of memes and shit that most of the other users don't like, right?

Obā-san · 2012-01-18 21:35:02

But the fact that they lurk in a small spinoff forum mostly dedicated to shitposts and being silly is honestly kinda sad.

^Which is what makes us freaking out over it really sad.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 21:36:07

I do.

But it's on SA, so it's appropriate to say "SA". You'll note I usually don't say "goons", because that would imply "all goons" or "most goons", which is not--afaik, anyway--correct.

I actually know a goon IRL, but I don't know his screenname (probably Beatles-something, knowing the person in question).

Anyway, I'm getting defensive now, which is a good sign I should drop the topic before my blood pressure starts rising.

Tachyon · 2012-01-18 21:41:18

It's also usually the same few goons posting in that thread, so the whole "goons = the enemy" thing is really strange and disproportionate.

I don't remember [AOD] ever saying much about paedophiles (though he did complain about the tolerance for lolicon manga there a few times), but he did quite frequently complain about sexism and creepiness.

I usually got along OK with him. The only times we argued were when he was complaining about the site.

Obā-san · 2012-01-18 21:42:16

Has FE ever said why he feels so threatened?

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 21:43:42

He did not like me for some reason. At least that's the impression I always got, I was paranoid in my earlier time using the site, so it might've been my imagination.

Still probably one of those cases where he's a nice guy if he's not talking about an "issue", if I had to guess. Anne was similar, really.

Has FE ever said why he feels so threatened?

I don't think he has and he probably never will. If you want my guess, it's just an intense personal dislike. I can understand it, SA isn't really the easiest site to like.

I have similar feelings on one Sankaku Complex.

Obā-san · 2012-01-18 21:47:50

(*Googles*)

Some anime website?

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 21:48:55

Take every negative stereotype you've ever heard leveled against an anime fan.

Now, crank said stereotypes all the way up on the dial 'til you go past eleven and hit 13 or so.

You now have Sankaku Complex, enjoy your incredibly freakish stay.

Tachyon · 2012-01-18 21:49:50

Eddie believes that some goons, or at least SA forum readers, are launching trolling attacks on us from that site.

And, in fairness, a number of tropers have certainly used goonlike rhetoric when complaining about the site. I really wouldn't be surprised if we did get some people coming over from that thread, whether or not they actually have accounts there.

>Still probably one of those cases where he's a nice guy if he's not talking about an "issue". Anne was similar, really.

I think this is very true. Of a lot of people, I mean, not just Anne or AOD.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 21:52:01

I still don't think it's reasonable of him to assume every critic is a goon.

I mean, he thought I was a goon after I got myself banned, apparently. I complain about SA more than I admit they have a point, does he think it was just some elaborate act or something?

I think this is very true. Of a lot of people, I mean, not just Anne or AOD.

Indeed. I mean heck, I think that's true of me depending on what you define as an "issue".

Anonus · 2012-01-18 21:55:56

You know it's strange to me, somehow, that a lot of their issues with TVT tend to be things I don't care about (most of the wiki) or just ignored (OTC).

Obā-san · 2012-01-18 21:56:14

So FE thinks people read the thread, come to the conclusion we're a buncha weaboo stormfag wannabes and come to troll righteously?

^^Part of why I'm leaving is because after reading "An Appeal To The Moderation" I've come to the conclusion FE, Maddy and Freighteer are kinda nuts.

^Same here.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 21:58:05

You know it's strange to me, somehow, that a lot of their issues with TVT tend to be things I don't care about (most of the wiki) or just ignored (OTC).

Likewise, this is one of the reasons the whole thing annoyed me, honestly. It was about stuff I don't care about. I realize that's a selfish perspective to take, but I think a lot of people didn't care about it.

Am I wrong?

Tachyon · 2012-01-18 21:58:13

I still don't think it's reasonable of him to assume every critic is a goon.

I mean, he thought I was a goon after I got myself banned, apparently. I complain about SA more than I admit they have a point, does he think it was just some elaborate act or something?

I think this is very true. Of a lot of people, I mean, not just Anne or AOD.

Indeed. I mean heck, I think that's true of me depending on what you define as an "issue".

No, I don't think that's reasonable, either. I tried pointing that out to him several times (not about you specifically; he didn't call you a goon in any thread I read), but I think he thinks I'm being naive.

And on the issue thing, yeah, I'm sure that's true of me as well.

So FE thinks people read the thread, come to the conclusion we're a buncha weaboo stormfag wannabes and come to troll righteously?

^^Part of why I'm leaving is because after reading "An Appeal To The Moderation" I've come to the conclusion FE, Maddy and Freighteer are kinda nuts.

Something like that.

And I don't think they're nuts.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 21:59:43

Someone told me he "all but said it outright".

*shrug*

If he thinks I'm a goon, he...well I have no idea. Either he'd have to think I'm the best actor in the world or that I was brainwashed.

Anonus · 2012-01-18 22:01:15

Seeing them use the word "troper" and not identifying with that word is weird, too.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 22:02:57

I don't think Maddy and Fighteer are nuts. Madrugada's PM conversations with me have convinced me that she's genuinely doing what she thinks best. I don't have a great opinion of Fighteer personally, I think he just likes being a mod.

Tachyon · 2012-01-18 22:03:01

I used to find it weird when people use "troper" as a pejorative, but now I can see where that comes from and I've become resigned to it.

Obā-san · 2012-01-18 22:03:29

Hey,

YOU'RE BEHAVING GOONISHLY!!!!!!!! (*BANHAMER*)

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 22:06:32

Speaking of tropers (total tangent inbound), I met one on the SmackJeeves forums the other day. Anyone know a guy who went by formedbabby?

Tachyon · 2012-01-18 22:07:07

I don't think anyone has been banned for "behaving goonishly".

^ There used to be a troper (a girl, not a guy, IIRC) named formingbabby.

PlutoniumFist · 2012-01-18 22:07:09

There was someone called Forming Babby for a while.

Salix Babylonika · 2012-01-18 22:09:09

That was probably it (don't have the post in question on hand).

Bobby: Please. I am not nearly as critical of Eddie as some, but I don't think it's deniable that in certain cases (eg. Anne, Cygan) he was just looking for an excuse because he thought they were goons (that in Anne's case he was right is honestly irrelevant). That's not abnormal among site admins, but it is rather sad. :/

Tachyon · 2012-01-18 22:10:51

I think it's more that when he suspected somebody was a goon, he'd be more sensitive to anything he perceived as rulebreaking from them, and more on the alert for it.

Tnu1138 · 2012-01-18 22:10:54

Eddie is taking increasingly more authoritarian measures in how the site operates. It's frightening really. Not as frightening as SOPA mind you but still scary.

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