A Music Discussion Heap of The Heapers' Hangout Forum [NO EMBEDS]

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  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    Jane said:

    I have somehow never heard of Liquid Liquid before today.


    Apparently their frontman was the kind of person who liked to go after artists who sampled/covered his work, so that kinda sucks, but w/e.

    I've heard a lot of these basslines flipped before but not in their original context. It's like finding the Rosetta Stone or something.
    I recall that they didn't go after Grandmaster Flash for copping "Cavern"'s bass line for his hit "White Lines", but a big part of that was the band wasn't sure whether to be pissed off or, all being huge fans of his, honoured. Also, the period, copyright, etc.

    ^^ & ^ I wouldn't call Boris or OOIOO "Japanoise," seeing as that term has certain connotations and, while certainly tied to that crowd via collaborators and band members, they're way more in line with the Japanese doom metal and freak-scene psychedelic traditions respectively, at least in sound and style.

    That said, Japan's experimental music meta-scene in general is really exciting and innovative and totally incestuous in the way that city scenes tend to be rather than regional or national ones.
  • Munch munch, chomp chomp...
    I wavered between "experimental" something and going with the term I'm slightly more familiar with. So I suppose it's the experimental and psychedelic I'm more looking at, alongside some doom metal. Although I'm curious what you mean about certain connotations, and where I could go from here given what I noted as interesting.
  • We can do anything if we do it together.

    Jane said:

    I have somehow never heard of Liquid Liquid before today.


    Apparently their frontman was the kind of person who liked to go after artists who sampled/covered his work, so that kinda sucks, but w/e.

    I've heard a lot of these basslines flipped before but not in their original context. It's like finding the Rosetta Stone or something.
    I recall that they didn't go after Grandmaster Flash for copping "Cavern"'s bass line for his hit "White Lines", but a big part of that was the band wasn't sure whether to be pissed off or, all being huge fans of his, honoured. Also, the period, copyright, etc.
    To my understanding, it wasn't until Gilbert O'Sullivan had his beef with Biz Markie that the legalities surrounding sampling became set in stone.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    Crystal said:

    I wavered between "experimental" something and going with the term I'm slightly more familiar with. So I suppose it's the experimental and psychedelic I'm more looking at, alongside some doom metal. Although I'm curious what you mean about certain connotations, and where I could go from here given what I noted as interesting.

    OOIOO are sort of an offshoot of Boredoms, who themselves began as an outgrowth or successor to the Japanoise terror squad Hanatarash. Boredoms started out doing kind of a more overtly rock version of what Hanatarash did, which is to say much flailing and shrieking and freeform bursts of insanity with titles like "God from Anal", but gradually evolved into something far more chill but even harder to classify. OOIOO can specifically be seen as springing out of Boredoms' '90s work, where they were moving from abstract Neo-Dada audio experiments to a more jam-oriented, ritualistic psych-rock sound. Where Boredoms went headlong into the more ecstatic rock side of things, OOIOO feel less rock and more... well, they straight up play gamelan instruments on their latest, and they do feel like a sort of punk psychedelic Technicolor take on non-Western classical music at points.

    Now, what I think of when I think of Japanoise is more overtly anti-musical. I've already mentioned Hanatarash, whose work is part of a strain that runs parallel to and overlaps with the rather extreme Japanese hardcore scene; groups like The Gerogerigegege kind of share that ethos, what with being very focused on extravagantly grotesque live performances and demented punk aesthetics. But a lot of Japanese noise has more in common with free jazz, or tape collage, or kosmische synth music. It's very diverse and forms a kind of spectrum of weirdness, but I think the unifying factor was that it was a lot harsher and more abstract a lot earlier than most of what sprang up in the US, UK and Europe at the same time. Hijokaidan and Keiji Haino were making harsh noise as early as the mid-'70s, and Merzbow and Incapacitants weren't far behind. This stuff was gnarly to hair-raising degrees, at times more so than early Throbbing Gristle or AMM, and this was coming out of a country with what is, even now, a pretty insular music culture—which, one could say, is what allowed shit this crazy to thrive.

    There is definitely a lot of overlap between Japanoise and less purely noisy forms of music and sound art. Fushitsusha, the band Keiji Haino formed in the '70s but which didn't release a record until 1989, are kind of this magic bridge, in that they're really abstract and their music sounds like arcs of lava in a volcanic pit or ball lighting as music, but it's also clearly being played by a power trio and the vocals are pretty upfront.
  • Munch munch, chomp chomp...
    I appreciate the informative post. Reckon I'll be checking out some Hanatarash, '90s Boredoms, kosmische synth music (also returning to Tangerine Dream and Schulze), and Fushitsusha, then.
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    Gungor is like this weird indie thing but they're also Christians? And their songs are kind of weirdly sensual and ecstatic? I dunno.
  • edited 2015-12-22 03:31:25
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    ^^ I also really like Aube, Merzbow (the man does have amazing range), and MSBR. I have also enjoyed and heard good things about KK Null's solo stuff and Masonna's more rock-infused material, but I'm not too familiar with either of them, although I can say that Null's band Zeni Geva is heavy as fuck and totally worth your time. Also, shout-out to Government Alpha, although his stuff is pretty punishing and by no means intro material. But then, same goes for Hanatarash, depending on the release. That shit will take the paint off your walls.

    In general, I just really like Japanese noise and experimental music, but some styles I like better than others.
  • We can do anything if we do it together.
    Crystal said:

    I appreciate the informative post. Reckon I'll be checking out some Hanatarash, '90s Boredoms, kosmische synth music (also returning to Tangerine Dream and Schulze), and Fushitsusha, then.

    Boris's Flood is still highly recommended if you're looking into that kind of music.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    Yeah, Boris are good stuff in general but I recall that one being especially strong.
  • edited 2015-12-22 03:46:22
    We can do anything if we do it together.
    Les Rallizes Dénudés is another one you might want to look into.

    They don't really have a discography per se, but '77 Live is the album usually recommended when getting into them.
  • Munch munch, chomp chomp...

    Crystal said:

    I appreciate the informative post. Reckon I'll be checking out some Hanatarash, '90s Boredoms, kosmische synth music (also returning to Tangerine Dream and Schulze), and Fushitsusha, then.

    Boris's Flood is still highly recommended if you're looking into that kind of music.

    Yeah, Boris are good stuff in general but I recall that one being especially strong.

    Oh, absolutely. I just forgot to quote you Sect, haha.

    ^^ I also really like Aube, Merzbow (the man does have amazing range), and MSBR. I have also enjoyed and heard good things about KK Null's solo stuff and Masonna's more rock-infused material, but I'm not too familiar with either of them, although I can say that Null's band Zeni Geva is heavy as fuck and totally worth your time. Also, shout-out to Government Alpha, although his stuff is pretty punishing and by no means intro material. But then, same goes for Hanatarash, depending on the release. That shit will take the paint off your walls.


    In general, I just really like Japanese noise and experimental music, but some styles I like better than others.
    Oh and Merzbow! I forget what I listened to from him but I only have positive associations in mind.

    In general, I guess I can say three things, two of which are directly relevant. Experimental music seems to be one of the genres with material I'm most likely to take to, even if I don't exactly love it. Dipping in about anywhere, even if where I "shouldn't" more often than not nets good results. Which leads me to the fact that, while I will listen to such suggestion, I don't uniformly follow ideas of starting with intro material (although I have if they pertain to themes and executions I'm seeking to get a better understanding of for example). I mean, one thing I do is random Wikipedia articles and listen to whatever albums or people I find (and similarly elsewhere). And, really, I've found that "I'm ready for virtually anything" is actually something that thankfully holds true for me. Even if it seems iffy, like the CC talk earlier.

    This became something of a ramble I guess, but I wanted to put some of my responses in context. Still really trying to find what areas of music just resonate with me the most.
  • edited 2015-12-22 03:52:05
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    ^^ Well, they don't have a lot of studio albums, but live stuff, particularly bootlegs and archive releases...

    I have quite a few. PM me and we can compare notes. I can upload some if you're interested.
  • We can do anything if we do it together.
    I haven't given them much of a listen beyond '77 Live yet, but thanks for the offer.
  • edited 2015-12-22 04:12:10
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    Crystal said:

    Crystal said:

    I appreciate the informative post. Reckon I'll be checking out some Hanatarash, '90s Boredoms, kosmische synth music (also returning to Tangerine Dream and Schulze), and Fushitsusha, then.

    Boris's Flood is still highly recommended if you're looking into that kind of music.

    Yeah, Boris are good stuff in general but I recall that one being especially strong.

    Oh, absolutely. I just forgot to quote you Sect, haha.

    ^^ I also really like Aube, Merzbow (the man does have amazing range), and MSBR. I have also enjoyed and heard good things about KK Null's solo stuff and Masonna's more rock-infused material, but I'm not too familiar with either of them, although I can say that Null's band Zeni Geva is heavy as fuck and totally worth your time. Also, shout-out to Government Alpha, although his stuff is pretty punishing and by no means intro material. But then, same goes for Hanatarash, depending on the release. That shit will take the paint off your walls.


    In general, I just really like Japanese noise and experimental music, but some styles I like better than others.
    Oh and Merzbow! I forget what I listened to from him but I only have positive associations in mind.

    In general, I guess I can say three things, two of which are directly relevant. Experimental music seems to be one of the genres with material I'm most likely to take to, even if I don't exactly love it. Dipping in about anywhere, even if where I "shouldn't" more often than not nets good results. Which leads me to the fact that, while I will listen to such suggestion, I don't uniformly follow ideas of starting with intro material (although I have if they pertain to themes and executions I'm seeking to get a better understanding of for example). I mean, one thing I do is random Wikipedia articles and listen to whatever albums or people I find (and similarly elsewhere). And, really, I've found that "I'm ready for virtually anything" is actually something that thankfully holds true for me. Even if it seems iffy, like the CC talk earlier.

    This became something of a ramble I guess, but I wanted to put some of my responses in context. Still really trying to find what areas of music just resonate with me the most.
    I completely understand that, and frankly operate in the same way most of the time, but I hesitate because, well, you generally want to ease people into stuff and give them some background through less extreme material before you throw them in the deep end. But I see we are of like minds, so...

    Cycle is probably my favourite Merzbow, although the man's discography is outrageous and I've only scratched the surface. For my part, I like when his work goes for a real range of sonic textures and ideas across the course of a piece rather than his more repetitive or relentless material, although some of his earliest work can be a bit tame, like early Nurse with Wound but a tad too minimal. He really came into his own in 1985 or so, with albums like Batztoutai with Memorial Gadgets being truly awesome mixes of extreme analogue noise and surrealist sound collage. Some of his work from the '80s and early '90s is just a bit *too* BWAAARRRGGHHH, though, for daily listening—see the mighty Venereology, his tribute to death metal, which is great but literally one of the loudest records of all time—and a few releases are just kind of... boring, but loud.

    His later work is more consistent, but I feel like his peak works of the last fifteen years are the ones that really fuse those older collage and analogue methods with his newer, mainly digital sound, Cycle being a noteworthy example that has some truly musical elements in the maelstrom as well as a truly sick build. Akita's strength is in the care he takes in layering sounds: He's as much a composer as anything else. It really shows in how the sound is arranged on that one.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”

    I haven't given them much of a listen beyond '77 Live yet, but thanks for the offer.

    "Night of the Assassins" has a killer riff, does it not.
  • I don't know if anyone but me will care about this but I was recently turned on to the work of The Midnight EE'z (I think that's pronounced "The Midnight Ease" but it's hard to say for sure), an instrumental hip-hop duo who submitted a single demo tape to All City Records back in 1995 and then promptly dropped off the face of the earth forever. It was re-released in 2011 and I downloaded it earlier today (the only official release is on vinyl and the original producers aren't getting any of that money, so I don't feel bad about pirating the thing in the slightest). The album (self-titled) is really interesting in a way that very little pre-Endtroducing.... instrumental hip-hop is, and I recommend it heavily.
  • edited 2015-12-22 04:20:39
    Munch munch, chomp chomp...
    (Responding to @MetaFour because combining the suggestions here is much more efficient, for me anyway.)

    I'm chilling with FTL before heading off for the night, but wanted to say I've read a fair bit of both of your posts, and will respond in turn once I have the energy and the time is convenient.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    Have snatched it. Will listen in the future.
  • We can do anything if we do it together.

    I haven't given them much of a listen beyond '77 Live yet, but thanks for the offer.

    "Night of the Assassins" has a killer riff, does it not.
    Indeed it does.

    @SF_Sorrow got me into them, so...
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    I agree, although I have more to say on the matter, particularly with respect to Pitchfork and Rolling Stone.
  • We can do anything if we do it together.

    I agree, although I have more to say on the matter, particularly with respect to Pitchfork and Rolling Stone.

    I would be interested in hearing these thoughts if you could get them together.
  • edited 2015-12-22 05:15:53
    “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    In a nutshell?

    TMT were right when they said that it's become tediously common to see music reviewers use comparisons to other artists or genre signifiers instead of trying to address the music on its own terms or actually put it in a broader context in a meaningful way. It's a lazy way to write, making yourself look well-informed while only expressing shallow, half-arsed judgements.

    What's worse is it's often couched in the pernicious rhetoric of the "objective review," whether implicit or explicit, which is its own terrible set of illusions and baked-in fallacies. While I can tolerate a certain degree of didacticism assuming the person has a solid self-understanding with respect to what works for them and isn't simply parroting some set of ideological talking points, pawning this off as "objective" is preposterous. What's more, the kind of person who believes that reviews should be "objective" seems to tend toward these very rigid, implicitly authoritarian ideas about art and how it should be considered and enjoyed.

    I kind of mentally lump these guys in with "genre warriors" like that weird guy on the TVT music forum who was obsessed with the supposed purity of metal genres, although the smug music reviewer is kind of coming from the same place heading in the opposite direction in that both seem to agree that genres, objective quality, opinion journalism as a science, and the dialectic of musical progress are all real and important things. They are all prescriptivists of the most insidious sort.
  • Jane said:

    I don't know if anyone but me will care about this but I was recently turned on to the work of The Midnight EE'z (I think that's pronounced "The Midnight Ease" but it's hard to say for sure), an instrumental hip-hop duo who submitted a single demo tape to All City Records back in 1995 and then promptly dropped off the face of the earth forever. It was re-released in 2011 and I downloaded it earlier today (the only official release is on vinyl and the original producers aren't getting any of that money, so I don't feel bad about pirating the thing in the slightest). The album (self-titled) is really interesting in a way that very little pre-Endtroducing.... instrumental hip-hop is, and I recommend it heavily.

    I'm interested. Thanks for the heads up
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    Unfortunately, comparisons to other artists and genre signifiers are probably more accessible than invoking music theory.
  • I don't have a problem with that style of writing per se but it has to be like, accurate.

    Comparing Curren$y to Camp Lo makes sense. Comparing him to former labelmate Lil Wayne does not.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    I'm not talking using music theory, I'm talking not going: "This sounds like [band] with the [instrument] style of [other band] and a hint of [subgenre], thus further proof that [invented genre jargon], and that originality is but a construct and [platitude]. Checkmate, theists."

    Like, put some thought into your critiques beyond asking yourself what you can lazily compare something to with the minimum of real explanation. Talk about how the album made you feel, what things sounded like, how they used dynamics and production and whether or not you liked the vibe or what you thought was interesting about the lyrics.

    Incidentally, TMT are just as guilty of pretending that genres they just made up are actually a thing, and they can be really up their own rears about justifying why they like lowbrow or trashy stuff (or very esoteric, arty stuff), but at least they don't name-drop like they just went to a MARVELLOUS PARTY and have an actual sense of humour about their own outrageous self-seriousness... mostly.
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    Really, the worst is pretending you're hip and in-the-now while taking yourself completely seriously and trying to pass off your shallow judgements and self-satisfied condescension as deep and meaningful and "real journalism."
  • “I'm surprised. Those clothes… but, aren't you…?”
    Holy shit, I worked a Noël Coward reference into a rant about music journos.

    I need to go to sleep before I get really arch.
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    Talking about your feelings is also really hard, but that's not exclusive to music journalism.
  • Crystal said:

    I appreciate the informative post. Reckon I'll be checking out some Hanatarash, '90s Boredoms, kosmische synth music (also returning to Tangerine Dream and Schulze), and Fushitsusha, then.

    If you're gonna check out Boredoms, I highly recommend Super æ and Vision Creation Newsun. I've heard Pop Tatari is good, but I haven't listened to that yet.
  • For once, or maybe twice, I was in my prime.
    Continuing this conversation...

    @Jane: If anything, Jars of Clay are a perfect example of how badly the CCM scene has fallen. Their first big-label album had lots of radio support and went platinum. But the band changed a lot over the years following—they went one direction, while the CCM paradigm went the opposite direction. So they went independent. It's pretty damning that there apparently wasn't a place in the CCM scene for Inland, one of Jars' best albums ever.

    @Sredni Vashtar: You're right, that was a genuine oversight on my part. Danielson's lyrics are odd enough that I tend to listen to it just as music-music rather than worship music, but there is an element of worship there, all the same. But Soul-Junk's noise-rock albums are definitely worship, just of a sort that would scare Becky's socks off. Glen is literally just setting scripture passages to music—it doesn't get any more theologically hardcore than that.
  • Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
    Inland was the greatest.
  • edited 2015-12-24 23:57:48

    naney's top albums that came out this year:

    * Levon Vincent - s/t

    * John Frusciante - Renoise Tracks 2009-2011

    * 2 8 1 4 - 新しい日の誕生

    * Lil Ugly Mane - Oblivion Access

    * Sophie - Product

    * Djwwww - U.S.M!

    * DJ Mastercard - Virtual Crime

    * Gammer - Having a Go (yeah this is a DJ mix but w/e)

    * Mastery - VALIS

    * Rising Sun Systems - Oberheim Space

    * Suzanne Kraft - Talk From Home

    * Liturgy - The Ark Work

    * Pure Ground - Standard of Living

    Garden of Delete will prolly end up on this list too but i have not listened to it yet because i am getting a physical copy for christmas
  • i didnt keep up with new music that much this year as per usual, spent more time finding old stuff
  • and there’s still a bunch of stuff that came out this year that im really looking forward to listening to but have not picked up yet
  • edited 2015-12-25 00:02:39

    havent gotten around to picking it up yet

    and i have an almost 100 dollar list of things to pick up that I will get around to in the next few days prolly and that's not on it honestly
  • $75.52 actually.
  • :shrug:

    I was just surprised.

    I never ask for music for christmas. I should start.
  • edited 2015-12-25 00:12:59

    I dont usually either but I really wanted a physical copy of that one and I wanted to ask for stuff besides like an electric toothbrush and wooden clothes hangers
  • We can do anything if we do it together.
    I just got a copy of Windows 7 (for dual-booting purposes) and the three Cucumber Quest books for Christmas.

    I don't regret my choices.
  • I should make a list of albums I want on CD
  • We can do anything if we do it together.
    That's what happens when you've grown up to have the ability to order for yourself and have your parents pay for it if it stays within a reasonable amount.
  • fight. dream. horse. love.
    Jane said:

    you know it's occurred to me that if I spent as much time listening to music as I did reading fucking random-ass Pitchfork reviews I'd probably be a lot more well-listened.


    I can tell you a decent amount about Capn' Jazz despite having never heard a single record of theirs for instance.
    i hate to reach back this far but I identify with this really, really hard
  • I've gotten somewhat better about it recently, still not as much as I'd like.
  • imagei will watch the heck outta this pumpkin patch
    i would be more well-listened if i actually sought out new music more often

    i tend to listen to the same things over and over >_>
  • fight. dream. horse. love.
    my music collection's been totally stagnant since I developed a sudden aversion to piracy, so I understand how you feel
  • my music collection's been totally stagnant since I developed a sudden aversion to piracy, so I understand how you feel

    what about like, Spotify
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