I don't think this is a "life is not fair" thing but rather a "we should do our best to encourage an egalitarian culture" thing.
And I agree. The only way to do this, in my opinion, is to drop the animosity we have for one another and move forward. The concept of "privilege" does not allow this to happen. It's a never-ending game of passing the blame around and one-upping others on how bad they have it. Its self-defeating nature is nothing more than a monumental waste of time.
@ Corporal Forsythe: Fair point, but it'd be a false dichotomy to suggest that criticizing social injustices necessarily means failing to make a dedicated effort to improve your own lot. Wanting reform is not the same as sitting back and crying. You can survive within a system without being apathetic towards inequalities within it. Life isn't fair, but we don't have to just lie back and accept every unfairness.
My own issue with the statement is a slightly different one: The assumption that everyone can simply do what you did or that they should. What of people who are physically unfit to join the military or work in certain jobs? What about people who have obligations to their family that force them to take jobs in which advancement is not an option simply to keep everyone afloat? How do you account for those born into dangerous neighbourhoods with terrible schools?
Were you even one of those things? If not, then what do you have to say to them?
Doctor Who reference in Pokemon B2W2? Headcanon accepted.
Alright, now I'm going to tackle the diatribe in the OP. It's such a fucking mess that I'm having a hard time figuring out how to begin.
There's the dubious tale at the beginning where the guy relates how this girl he was with ran from the comic store because some cretin lectured her about the value of zeppelin boobs while never taking his gaze off of hers. To him, this was an example of "male privilege", for the rest of us that's just someone being a disgusting creep. As idiotic as this setup is, it frames the rest of this guy's argument and poorly at that. He laments that comics are -- surprise, surprise -- marketed in a way to appeal to nerdy males. We have ourselves a regular Captain Obvious here.
Y’see, one of the issues of male privilege as it applies to fandom is the instinctive defensive reaction to any criticism that maybe, just maybe, shit’s a little fucked up, yo. Nobody wants to acknowledge that a one-sided (and one-dimensional) portrayal of women is the dominant paradigm in gaming; the vast majority of female characters are sexual objects.
So the argument here is that women are portrayed as sex objects in a medium whose market is overwhelmingly male and this is male privilege and it's bad.
If a girl wants to see herself represented in video games, she better get used to the idea of being the prize at the bottom of the cereal box. If she wants to see herself as a main character, then it’s time to get ready for a parade of candyfloss costumes where nipple slips are only prevented by violating the laws of physics.
The number of games with competent female protagonists who wear more than the Victoria’s Secret Angels are few and far between.
But what is that threat, exactly?
In this case, the threat is that – ultimately – fandom won’t cater to guys almost to exclusion… that gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women might start having a say in the way that games, comics, etc. will be created in the future.
This has to be one of the most delusional things I've ever read. The fear of the fandom catering to women, gays, and others is laughable. Fucking Archie of all comics has an issue this month where George Takei shows up and discusses homosexuality with the teens in Riverdale.
...are a distraction from the real issue: that the Privileged are worried that they won’t be as privileged in the near future if this threat isn’t stomped out.
Oh my God I don't even know how to respond to this. We're in the realm of conspiracy now, and all over funny books and Legos.
As much as my nerdy brethren wish that more girls were of the geeky persuasion, it’s a little understandable why women might be a little reticent. It’s hard to feel valued or fully included when a very vocal group insists that your input is irrelevant, misguided and ultimately unwelcome.
I've been an anime/manga/comic fan for a long fucking time. My introduction to the internet was on the anime IRC channel (because at the time it was the only IRC channel about anime.) The first anime magazine that I've ever owned (and I still have!) has an advertisement for Anime Con '91 which the next year it became Anime Expo. I've been to AX myself several times, and let me tell you I've hung around some major fucking nerds and geeks -- and never did I see any of the males in this group mistreat or fear or whatever the fuck this idiot is suggesting, and I've never known the females to act afraid or marginalized.
My own issue with the statement is a slightly different one: The assumption that everyone can simply do what you did or that they should. What of people who are physically unfit to join the military or work in certain jobs? What about people who have obligations to their family that force them to take jobs in which advancement is not an option simply to keep everyone afloat? How do you account for those born into dangerous neighbourhoods with terrible schools?
Were you even one of those things? If not, then what do you have to say to them?
For the disabled, there's government assistance. For people with exceptional circumstances like you present here, I don't know. I'm speaking on general level, and of course I can't possibly account for everyone's unique or extraordinary situations.
Corporal, you seem to have an almost Randian view of the universe. The reason I say this is because you believe that people only need hard work to achieve what they want and if they dont then they are lazy scumbags.
But the fact is that there is actual privileges in first world countries and to dismiss them with "lulz bootstraps" is fucking insulting.
Corporal, you seem to have an almost Randian view of the universe. The reason I say this is because you believe that people only need hard work to achieve what they want and if they dont then they are lazy scumbags.
But the fact is that there is actual privileges in first world countries and to dismiss them with "lulz bootstraps" is fucking insulting.
I believe that self-reliance is a virtue, yes. And in western society, we have avenues open for everyone -- even immigrants fresh off the boat -- to advance and succeed in their life. If me pointing out these simple, undeniable facts is insulting then you really need to get a thicker skin.
I believe that self-reliance is a virtue, yes. And in western society, we have avenues open for everyone -- even immigrants fresh off the boat -- to advance and succeed in their life. If me pointing out these simple, undeniable facts is insulting then you really need to get a thicker skin.
Except that avenues aren't open for everyone or phrases like "postcode lottery" wouldn't exist.
Its insulting because a man of your supposed intelligence believes they are simple and undeniable facts when they aren't,
But then you're not really addressing privilege, are you? You are addressing the accusation of privilege made by certain people against others, in which both parties are, for the most part, unfamiliar with the reality of being unprivileged. What you address as "privilege" is only what certain people call "privilege," not the truth of it.
Except that avenues aren't open for everyone or phrases like "postcode lottery" wouldn't exist.
Its insulting because a man of your supposed intelligence believes they are simple and undeniable facts when they aren't,
Fine, prove me wrong. Show me that there's insurmountable obstacles in the way of advancement for tangible portions of the population. Take your time, too.
So what we have here is a study that suggests some employers discriminate based on names. Well, I can tell you that the military doesn't do this neither does any government agency, nor do many other employers in this nation.
You seem to think that I'm suggesting that getting by in life would be perfectly easy for everyone across the board, which I did not. I stated that it is very possible.
But then you're not really addressing privilege, are you? You are addressing the
accusation of privilege made by certain people against others, in which both parties are, for the most part, unfamiliar with the reality of being unprivileged. What you address as "privilege" is only what certain people call "privilege," not the truth of it.
What I'm criticizing here is the nutty concept of privilege that social justice types have embraced. I realize that not everyone is born a Kennedy and have palms greased for their entry into Harvard.
Fine, prove me wrong. Show me that there's insurmountable obstacles in the way of advancement for tangible portions of the population. Take your time, too.
Dont you worry, I'm still waiting for you to prove your position.
So what we have here is a study that suggests some employers discriminate based on names. Well, I can tell you that the military doesn't do this neither does any government agency, nor do many other employers in this nation.
You seem to think that I'm suggesting that getting by in life would be perfectly easy for everyone across the board, which I did not. I stated that it is very possible.
What I'm criticizing here is the nutty concept of privilege that social justice types have embraced. I realize that not everyone is born a Kennedy and have palms greased for their entry into Harvard.
You never said that before.
All you said was that privilege didn't exist before
You seem to think that I'm suggesting that getting by in life would be perfectly easy for everyone across the board, which I did not. I stated that it is very possible.
Personal anecdotes is not evidence
And a strawman isn't an argument. I'll repeat myself: You seem to think that I'm suggesting that getting by in life would be perfectly easy for everyone across the board, which I did not. I stated that it is very possible.
What I'm criticizing here is the nutty concept of privilege that social justice types have embraced. I realize that not everyone is born a Kennedy and have palms greased for their entry into Harvard.
You never said that before.
All you said was that privilege didn't exist before
Perhaps you should ask beforehand so you know that we're on the same page.
A romance novel (of which sex is a major element) is a tad different from a superhero comic or some such, which need not have sex in any capacity.
Yes, they are the same. They're geeky fantasies, and they both enjoy sizable circulation and turnover. Here in this town of 200,000, we have several bookstores -- one even down the street from me -- that specialize strictly on romance novels. The aftermarket for that shit is astounding.
A romance novel (of which sex is a major element) is a tad different from a superhero comic or some such, which need not have sex in any capacity.
Yes, they are the same. They're geeky fantasies, and they both enjoy sizable circulation and turnover. Here in this town of 200,000, we have several bookstores -- one even down the street from me -- that specialize strictly on romance novels. The aftermarket for that shit is astounding.
Some people are born with the deck stacked against them, so to speak. Not everyone has the military as an option (due to, i.e., age, physical and mental disabilities, or criminal history).
The military isn't the only option people have. It's one of the most accessible, however. People with physical disabilities rate government assistance. As for criminal history, well, that's one of the wages of crime.
or have any hope of receiving a scholarship, and many are illiterate anyway due to having not received a proper education. Statistics will show that workplaces pay men more money, and I don't think one can convincingly argue that women don't suffer more sexual harrassment than males. Many places discriminate based on a person's ethnicity, and some places are blatantly racist, even their police force. Some people hardly have a chance of education or an "honest" life because they are born into families of criminals or drug addicts or don't have any place to go. Some people suffer abuse at the hands of everyone around them and have no escape from where they live. Many people have opportunities for nice things, yes, but I do not believe it is even remotely true that everyone in western society has the possibility of ascending to middle- or upper-class status.
For every single person? No. For almost all people of all creeds, religions, gender, orientation, etc? Yes, it is very possible.
Your argument here is basically that hetero romance novels aimed at females are the female 'equivalent' of superhero comics, but this is very alienating to females who enjoy superheroes. It presupposes that superhero comics are 'only for guys' or that sexualization of all the females should come with the territory. This is what privilege is all about.
No, I'm not. That fellow is arguing that women are portrayed as sex objects in a mostly male genre while the same fucking thing is being done to men in a mostly female genre. It's very simple.
What I'm criticizing here is the nutty concept of privilege that social justice types have embraced. I realize that not everyone is born a Kennedy and have palms greased for their entry into Harvard.
That's fair, I think.
I would argue, however, that what the self-proclaimed warriors of equality call "privilege" does have some basis in reality. Inequality based on discrimination exists. The problem is that the context in which they choose to frame the issue is a very poor one.
Doctor Who reference in Pokemon B2W2? Headcanon accepted.
No it isn't. College is money. Even a cheap community college is money, and some people have zero dollars to spend on that. A person with no source of this money will not go to college.
But this is the problem, right here. If fans and creators of this genre don't want to alienate females, then this attitude is bad. But because there is this attitude, it alienates females, and there is no reason females should not be able to enjoy this genre.
Then by this line of reasoning, romance novels as a mostly female genre is a bad thing too. Which it isn't. There's nothing wrong with something geared to any sort of demographic, whatsoever.
^^ The two aren't directly equivalent, though. Even if they existed in a cultural vacuum where the interests of men and women were considered on equal footing, which they don't, romance novels are still a single genre that specifically targets a heterosexual female audience, whereas geek media (comics, video games, etc.) is a substantial subculture encompassing a wide array of genres. Yes, there are parallels. Yes, romance novels are hugely successful. But the two situations are not identical.
^ There are also potential barriers to pursuing higher education in the form of the circumstances you had growing up, which to some extent will shape who you are as a person, what kind of knowledge and resources you have access to, and consequently what avenues are open to you. Not everyone who theoretically could take advantage of the system as it exists is ideally placed to do so.
Some people are born with the deck stacked against them, so to speak. Not everyone has the military as an option (due to, i.e., age, physical and mental disabilities, or criminal history).
The military isn't the only option people have. It's one of the most accessible, however. People with physical disabilities rate government assistance. As for criminal history, well, that's one of the wages of crime.
or have any hope of receiving a scholarship, and many are illiterate anyway due to having not received a proper education. Statistics will show that workplaces pay men more money, and I don't think one can convincingly argue that women don't suffer more sexual harrassment than males. Many places discriminate based on a person's ethnicity, and some places are blatantly racist, even their police force. Some people hardly have a chance of education or an "honest" life because they are born into families of criminals or drug addicts or don't have any place to go. Some people suffer abuse at the hands of everyone around them and have no escape from where they live. Many people have opportunities for nice things, yes, but I do not believe it is even remotely true that everyone in western society has the possibility of ascending to middle- or upper-class status.
For every single person? No. For almost all people of all creeds, religions, gender, orientation, etc? Yes, it is very possible.
Now, I have a few problems with this.
For one thing, you are considering all people with some kind of criminal record as "criminals;" not in the technical sense, but the semantic sense. A single stupid mistake in a person's past, or some aspect of their life that they might have since reformed, stays with them and foils any chances at improving themselves. This, I think, is horribly unjust.
For another, attending university is not always so easy as you make it out to be. Again, consider being born into poverty, in an area with lousy schools and a high crime rate. How would you fare as a student in that environment? Would you be able to keep up decent grades with the constant stress of the world bear down on you? If you could, would they really be enough, and if not, how would you find the money? Let's say you have even a very small disability—a mild scoliosis, a limp, bad eyesight—that, while not enough to seriously damage your quality of life or qualify you for support, disqualifies you from military service. What do you do then? Scenarios like these are far more common than you might think.
Doctor Who reference in Pokemon B2W2? Headcanon accepted.
Beyond what comic books and fantasy novels are and how they relate is beside the point. Both of them are guilty of objectifying both sexes as sex objects. That's the point I'm trying to drive home here. According to Junior here and his diatribe, comic books doing this is bad but other mediums doing this not so much.
It's not beside the point, though. Comic books, and by extension the wider category of geek media and subculture, are what's being critcized here. We're not looking at an abstract, hypothetical scenario in which the imagery itself can be considered independently of other factors, which contribute towards a culture that is to some extents alienating and at times hostile towards women.
For one thing, you are considering all people with some kind of criminal record as "criminals;" not in the technical sense, but the semantic sense. A single stupid mistake in a person's past, or some aspect of their life that they might have since reformed, stays with them and foils any chances at improving themselves. This, I think, is horribly unjust.
For another, attending university is not always so easy as you make it out to be. Again, consider being born into poverty, in an area with lousy schools and a high crime rate. How would you fare as a student in that environment? Would you be able to keep up decent grades with the constant stress of the world bear down on you? If you could, would they really be enough, and if not, how would you find the money? Let's say you have even a very small disability—a mild scoliosis, a limp, bad eyesight—that, while not enough to seriously damage your quality of life or qualify you for support, disqualifies you from military service. What do you do then? Scenarios like these are far more common than you might think.
There's a fellow I attend classes with who is black, born into poverty, and so crippled that he can barely walk. He's also excelling in computer science. Anyway, talking to him, the government provides for his education and housing because as a disabled person, he rates that assistance.
Anyway, I'm going to stress again that I'm speaking in a general sense. Yes, there are people who have to suffer extraordinary situations in the mix. You can keep tossing out all these "what if this, what if that, how about...." all you want, but it doesn't diminish from the fact that for the average American these things are accessible, and I'm leaving it at that.
It's not beside the point, though. Comic books, and by extension the wider category of geek media and subculture, are what's being critcized here. We're not looking at an abstract, hypothetical scenario in which the imagery itself can be considered independently of other factors, which contribute towards a culture that is to some extents alienating and at times hostile towards women.
No, it is the point. Comics are not exclusive when it comes to marketing towards a target demographic. They're directly comparable to things like romance novels, hunting and fishing magazines, hot rod magazines, and the like. Producers of comics are going to produce material that appeals to the largest subset of this demographic.
^ i see it as a crucial point of contention which colours and to an extent shapes this entire debate, but fair enough if you don't think it's relevant.
^^ i think this goes back to my earlier point about the perception of geek interests as primarily male interests. i don't mean to dispute that this is the demographic superhero comics are marketed towards, but i think it's worthwhile to consider the factors that may have caused this to become the case.
Comments
@ Cream: i agree.
There's the dubious tale at the beginning where the guy relates how this girl he was with ran from the comic store because some cretin lectured her about the value of zeppelin boobs while never taking his gaze off of hers. To him, this was an example of "male privilege", for the rest of us that's just someone being a disgusting creep. As idiotic as this setup is, it frames the rest of this guy's argument and poorly at that. He laments that comics are -- surprise, surprise -- marketed in a way to appeal to nerdy males. We have ourselves a regular Captain Obvious here.
Y’see, one of the issues of male privilege as it applies to fandom is the instinctive defensive reaction to any criticism that maybe, just maybe, shit’s a little fucked up, yo. Nobody wants to acknowledge that a one-sided (and one-dimensional) portrayal of women is the dominant paradigm in gaming; the vast majority of female characters are sexual objects.
So the argument here is that women are portrayed as sex objects in a medium whose market is overwhelmingly male and this is male privilege and it's bad.
If a girl wants to see herself represented in video games, she better get used to the idea of being the prize at the bottom of the cereal box. If she wants to see herself as a main character, then it’s time to get ready for a parade of candyfloss costumes where nipple slips are only prevented by violating the laws of physics.
The number of games with competent female protagonists who wear more than the Victoria’s Secret Angels are few and far between.
But what is that threat, exactly?
In this case, the threat is that – ultimately – fandom won’t cater to guys almost to exclusion… that gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women might start having a say in the way that games, comics, etc. will be created in the future.
This has to be one of the most delusional things I've ever read. The fear of the fandom catering to women, gays, and others is laughable. Fucking Archie of all comics has an issue this month where George Takei shows up and discusses homosexuality with the teens in Riverdale.
...are a distraction from the real issue: that the Privileged are worried that they won’t be as privileged in the near future if this threat isn’t stomped out.
Oh my God I don't even know how to respond to this. We're in the realm of conspiracy now, and all over funny books and Legos.
As much as my nerdy brethren wish that more girls were of the geeky persuasion, it’s a little understandable why women might be a little reticent. It’s hard to feel valued or fully included when a very vocal group insists that your input is irrelevant, misguided and ultimately unwelcome.
I've been an anime/manga/comic fan for a long fucking time. My introduction to the internet was on the anime IRC channel (because at the time it was the only IRC channel about anime.) The first anime magazine that I've ever owned (and I still have!) has an advertisement for Anime Con '91 which the next year it became Anime Expo. I've been to AX myself several times, and let me tell you I've hung around some major fucking nerds and geeks -- and never did I see any of the males in this group mistreat or fear or whatever the fuck this idiot is suggesting, and I've never known the females to act afraid or marginalized.
But the fact is that there is actual privileges in first world countries and to dismiss them with "lulz bootstraps" is fucking insulting.
Its insulting because a man of your supposed intelligence believes they are simple and undeniable facts when they aren't,
Prove that wrong then matey.
But then you're not really addressing privilege, are you? You are addressing the accusation of privilege made by certain people against others, in which both parties are, for the most part, unfamiliar with the reality of being unprivileged. What you address as "privilege" is only what certain people call "privilege," not the truth of it.
All you said was that privilege didn't exist before
Afterall you said That sentence is jolly misleading.
Yes I do agree with you that the whole tumblr social justice is bullshit.
real life social justice is not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pell_grant
^ There are also potential barriers to pursuing higher education in the form of the circumstances you had growing up, which to some extent will shape who you are as a person, what kind of knowledge and resources you have access to, and consequently what avenues are open to you. Not everyone who theoretically could take advantage of the system as it exists is ideally placed to do so.
In your opinion, Corporal, what should Americans 'suffering extraordinary situations', as you put it, do?
^^ i think this goes back to my earlier point about the perception of geek interests as primarily male interests. i don't mean to dispute that this is the demographic superhero comics are marketed towards, but i think it's worthwhile to consider the factors that may have caused this to become the case.