Privilege discussion 2.0 (read the OP)

Corporal Forsythe · 2013-01-12 21:34:01

...wherein A8 and the Corporal (me!) continue a long debate we had a few months ago. This is a friendly discussion.

THAT MEANS IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT'S BEING DISCUSSED HERE, LEAVE. IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING VALID TO ADD, GOODBYE. DON'T SHITPOST IN THIS THREAD.

Anyway,

Nerds and Male Privilege (definitely worth a read!) I want to tell you a story.

A few years ago, I was dating a girl who was decidedly not nerd curious. She tolerated my geeky interests with a certain bemused air but definitely didn’t participate in ‘em… not even setting foot inside a comic store on new comic day. She’d wait outside until I was done… which could be a while, since I was friends with several of the staff.

She came in the store exactly once, after I’d explained that no, it’s a pretty friendly place… well lit, spacious, organized and with helpful – and clearly identified – staff members who were willing to bend over backwards to make sure their customers were satisfied.

She was in there for less than 4 minutes before one mouth-breathing troglodyte began alternately staring at her boobs – evidently hoping that x-ray vision could develop spontaneously – and berating her for daring to comment on the skimpy nature of the costumes – in this case, Lady Death and Witchblade. She fled the premises, never to return.

When both the manager and I explained to him in no uncertain terms as to what he did wrong he shrugged his shoulders. “Hey, I was just trying to help you guys! She couldn’t understand that chicks can be tough and sexy! Not my fault she’s a chauvinist,” he said.

And that was when I shot him, your honor.

So with that example in mind, let’s talk about a subject I’ve touched on before: Male Privilege and how it applies to geeks and – more importantly – geek girls.

MALE PRIVILEGE: WHAT IS IT, EXACTLY?

I don’t think I’m breaking any news or blowing minds when I point out that geek culture as a whole is predominantly male. Not to say that women aren’t making huge inroads in science fiction/fantasy fandom, gaming, anime and comics… but it’s still a very male culture. As such, it caters to the predominantly male audience that makes it up. This, in turn leads to the phenomenon known as male privilege: the idea that men – most often straight, white men – as a whole, get certain privileges and status because of their gender.

(Obvious disclaimer: I’m a straight white man.)

In geek culture, this manifests in a number of ways. The most obvious is in the portrayal of female characters in comics, video games and movies. Batman: Arkham City provides an excellent example.

The women are all about sex, sex, sexy sextimes. With maybe a little villainy thrown in for flavor. They may be characters, but they’re also sexual objects to be consumed.

I will pause now for the traditional arguments from my readers: these characters are all femme fatales in the comics, all of the characters in the Arkham games are over-the-top, the men are just as exaggerated/sexualized/objectified as the women. Got all of that out of your systems? Good.

Because that reaction is exactly what I’m talking about.

Y’see, one of the issues of male privilege as it applies to fandom is the instinctive defensive reaction to any criticism that maybe, just maybe, shit’s a little fucked up, yo. Nobody wants to acknowledge that a one-sided (and one-dimensional) portrayal of women is the dominant paradigm in gaming; the vast majority of female characters are sexual objects. If a girl wants to see herself represented in video games, she better get used to the idea of being the prize at the bottom of the cereal box. If she wants to see herself as a main character, then it’s time to get ready for a parade of candyfloss costumes where nipple slips are only prevented by violating the laws of physics. The number of games with competent female protagonists who wear more than the Victoria’s Secret Angels are few and far between.

The idea that perhaps the way women are portrayed in fandom is aleetle sexist is regularly met with denials, justifications and outright dismissal of the issue. So regularly, in fact, that there’s a Bingo card covering the most common responses. Part of the notion of male privilege in fandom is that nothing is wrong with fandom and that suggestions that it might benefit from some diversity is treated as a threat.

But what is that threat, exactly?

In this case, the threat is that – ultimately – fandom won’t cater to guys almost to exclusion… that gays, lesbians, racial and religious minorities and (gasp!) women might start having a say in the way that games, comics, etc. will be created in the future. The strawmen that are regularly trotted out – that men are objectified as well, that it’s a convention of the genre, that women actually have more privileges than guys – are a distraction from the real issue: that the Privileged are worried that they won’t be as privileged in the near future if this threat isn’t stomped out. Hence the usual reactions: derailment, minimization and ultimately dismissing the topic all together.

As much as my nerdy brethren wish that more girls were of the geeky persuasion, it’s a little understandable why women might be a little reticent. It’s hard to feel valued or fully included when a very vocal group insists that your input is irrelevant, misguided and ultimately unwelcome. It’s small wonder why geekdom – for all of it’s self-proclaimed enlightened attitudes towards outsiders and outcasts – stil retains the odor of the guy’s locker room.

Corporal Forsythe · 2013-01-12 21:35:48

HOW MALE PRIVILEGE AFFECTS GEEK GIRLS IN REAL LIFE

Don’t make the mistake of thinking male privilege is solely about how big Power Girl’s tits are, fan service and jiggle physics in 3D fighters. It affects geek girls in direct, personal ways as well.

Remember the example I mentioned earlier with my then-girlfriend in the comic store? Her opinions were deemed mistaken and she was told she didn’t “get it”… because she was a girl.

Y’see, one of the issues that nerd girls face is the fact that they are seen as girls first and anything else second. And before you flood my comments section demanding to know why this is a bad thing, realize that being seen as a “girl” first colors every interaction that they have within fandom. They’re treated differently because they are women.

We will now pause for the expected responses: well that’s a good thing isn’t it, girls get special treatment because they’re girls, guys will fall all over themselves to try to get girls to like ‘em so it all balances out.

If you’re paying attention you’ll realize that – once again – those reactions are what I’m talking about.

Y’see, nobody’s saying that women don’t receive different treatment from guys… I’m saying that being treated differently is the problem. And yes, I know exactly what many of you are going to say and I’ll get to that in a minute.

Male privilege – again – is about what men can expect as the default setting for society. A man isn’t going to have everything about him filtered through the prism of his gender first. A man, for example, who gets a job isn’t going to face with suggestions that his attractiveness or that his willingness to perform sexual favors was a factor in his being hired, nor will he be shrugged off as a “quota hire”. A man isn’t expected to be a representative of his sex in all things; if he fails at a job, it’s not going to be extrapolated that all men are unfit for that job. A man who’s strong-willed or aggressive won’t be denigrated for it, nor are men socialized to “go along to get along”. A man can expect to have his opinion considered, not dismissed out of hand because of his sex. When paired with a woman who’s of equal status, the man can expect that most of the world will assume that he’s the one in charge. And, critically, a man doesn’t have to continually view the world through the lens of potential violence and sexual assault.

Now with this in mind, consider why being a girl first may be a hindrance to geek girls. A guy who plays a first person shooter – Call of Duty, Halo, Battlefield, what-have-you – online may expect a certain amount of trash talking, but he’s not going to be inundated with offers for sex, threats of rape, sounds of simulated masturbation or demands that he blow the other players – but not before going to the kitchen and getting them a beer/sandwich/pizza first. Men will also not be told that they’re being “too sensitive” or that “they need to toughen up” when they complain about said sexual threats.

Men also won’t have their opinions weighed or dismissed solely on the basis of how sexy or attractive they are. The most common responses a woman can expect in an argument – especially online – is that she’s fat, ugly, single, jealous, a whore, or a lesbian – or any combination thereof – and therefore her opinion is irrelevant, regardless of it’s actual merits. This is especially true if she’s commenting on the portrayal of female characters, whether in comics, video games or movies.

Men can expect that their presence at an event won’t automatically be assumed to be decorative or secondary to another man. Despite the growing presence of women in comics, as publishers, editors and creators as well as consumers, a preponderance of men will either treat women at conventions as inconveniences, booth bunnies or even potential dates. Many a female creator or publisher has had the experience of convention guests coming up and addressing all of their questions to the man at the table… despite being told many times that the man is often the assistant, not the talent, only there to provide logistical support and occasional heavy lifting.

Men are also not going to be automatically assigned into a particular niche just based on their gender. A girl in a comic store or a video game store is far more likely to be dismissed as another customer’s girlfriend/sister/cousin rather than being someone who might actually be interested in making a purchase herself. And when they are seen as customers, they’re often automatically assumed to be buying one of the designated “girl” properties… regardless of whether they were just reading Ultimate Spider-Man or looking for a copy of Saint’s Row 3.

Of course, the other side of the coin isn’t much better; being dismissed for the sin of being a woman is bad, but being placed on the traditional pillar is no less insulting. Guys who fall all over themselves to fawn over a geek girl and dance in attendance upon her are just as bad. The behavior is different, but the message is the same: she’s different because she’s a girl. These would-be white knights are ultimately treating her as a fetish object, not as a person. It’s especially notable when it comes to sexy cosplayers; the guys will laude them for being geek girls and celebrate them in person and online. They’ll lavish attention upon them, take photos of them and treat them as queens…

And in doing so, they’re sending the message that women are only valued in geek culture if they’re willing to be a sexually alluring product. Everybody loves Olivia Munn when she enters the room ass-cheeks first as Aeon Flux, but nobody is particularly concerned by the girls dressed in a baseball tee, jeans and ballet flats. One of these is welcomed into geek culture with open arms, the other has to justify their existence in the first place.

WHAT DOES ALL OF THIS MEAN TO YOU?

The reason why male privilege is so insidious is because of the insistance that it doesn’t exist in the first place. That willful ignorance is key in keeping it in place; by pretending that the issue doesn’t exist, it is that much easier to ensure that nothing ever changes.

Geek society prides itself on being explicitly counter-culture; nerds will crow about how, as a society, they’re better than the others who exclude them. They’ll insist that they’re more egalitarian; geeks hold tight to the belief that geek culture is a meritocracy, where concepts of agism, sexism and racism simply don’t exist the way it does elsewhere. And yet, even a cursory examination will demonstrate that this isn’t true.

And yet geeks will cling to this illusion while simultaneously refusing to address the matters that make it so unattractive to women and minorities. They will insist that they treat women exactly the same as they treat guys – all the while ignoring the fact that their behavior is what’s making the women uncomfortable and feeling unwelcome in the first place. They will find one girl in their immediate community who will say that she’s not offended and use her as the “proof” that nobody else is allowed to be offended.

Changing this prevailing attitude starts with the individual. Call it part of learning to be a better person; being willing to examine your own attitudes and behaviors and to be ruthlessly honest about the benefits you get from being a white male in fandom is the first step. Waving your hands and pretending that there isn’t a problem is a part of the attitude that makes women feel unwelcome in fandom and serves as the barrier to entry to geeky pursuits that she might otherwise enjoy.

Bringing the spotlight onto the concept of male privilege as it exists in nerd culture is the first step in making it more welcoming of diversity, especially women.

Corporal Forsythe · 2013-01-12 21:36:41

And there we go. That's what we're going from, something Cream posted into the main HH thread. I have to run to the store, brb

Anonus · 2013-01-12 21:39:32

(moved to Talk to reinforce "no shitposting")

Corporal Forsythe · 2013-01-12 21:56:05

Thanks, Anonus!

Unknown · 2013-01-12 22:02:19

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Justice4243 · 2013-01-12 22:39:56

I think the guy has some points regarding the state of the comic industry and how it's generally rather uninviting for women, but I think he's making a lot of assumptions about how women are treated by the "geeks" in general.

Part of the issue is many of these guys are simply not very socially adept, and have very little experience dealing with women. Shaming their behavior by saying they need to recognize their privilege doesn't strike me as the best solution here. Sadly, their lack of social experience or experience with women isn't something that can just be solved by declaring that they need to recognize male privilege in a group or click that's predominately male. It's likely something of a problem for each individual.

Now, my personal experience here is that women are usually welcomed with open arms if they show interest and most guys don't really care how little they know about whatever game or anything as long they really want to learn more.

Part of what's being over looked here is that comics, 3D fighters, and first person shooters are stacking the deck against women. These things are targeted at males and males tend to be the most interested consumers. However, if you start looking at stuff like Anime or Live action role-playing, the gender ratio balances out quite a bit more and the industry reflects this as well with many things designed to target women.

As mentioned in the other thread, I think the anecdote that started the article off is a bit weaker than the author imagines. The woman has no desire to learn anything about these comics, she comments on them without any real knowledge of what she's talking about and probably gets someone defensive. I'll grant this dude is probably a world class a-hole anyhow, but he's hardly a representative of "geeks" as a whole.

Honestly, the disparity between the amount of males to females is a well known and oft regretted aspect of most guys who consider themselves nerds from my experience. Yes there are those in the nerd culture who don't know how to treat women, and often times don't really know how to treat people, but labeling their actions an example of them not recognizing privileges is probably well off the mark and not going to help them become better people.

Corporal Forsythe · 2013-01-12 22:40:39

Before I begin, I'm going to preface my argument that I find the entire concept of "privilege" as bullshit.

I'm not talking about the uneven standard of living and how some people have it better than others. This is called "life" and life isn't fair. In western society, which we all live (except for a few here in Southeast Asia) our society has opportunities open for most everyone to improve their lot in life. These options may not suit everyone's fancy, but that's life. I went from homeless to doing quite well and about to finish a university degree all due to the military. Bootstraps exist and not enough people use them.

"Privilege" as it's being tossed around nowadays was conceived way back in 1988 by Peggy McIntosh who took it upon herself to decide that anyone who was a different color than white and a different sex than male automatically had a rougher life, and the funny thing is she didn't even include the input of these oppressed minorities or anyone else for that matter. She never even cited any sources to support this particular revelation she had. She simply decided on her own that these poor minorities deserve our compassion and sympathy like a child would.

If you ask me, that's condescending as all fuck. A good intention on her part, to be sure, but this is the kind of thing that the road to hell is paved with.

As we all know, lately the internet has taken this ball and ran with it in ways I'm sure that Ms. McIntosh would have never conceived. We now have white privilege, male privilege, heterosexual privilege, thin privilege, Christian privilege, age privilege, cis privilege, class privilege, ableist privilege, and even species privilege because we can't leave Fluffy and Rover out. Internet roundtables are popping up everywhere on how to combat this menace, with the accepted ordnance being "checking said privilege", a nebulous action that one (who enjoys privilege) undertakes and results in the world being a better place for everyone else. Unsurprisingly, folks like me aren't convinced that this phantom remedy for an illusory problem does any good whatsoever.

"Yes, but inequality! Racism! This proves that privilege exists!" they say. And it is true that racism and inequality do exist. However, to say that their continued existence is proof of privilege is nothing more than trying to fit facts to a theory. It doesn't work that way.

Anyway, I plan to go through that fellow's concept of privilege in "geek culture" tomorrow.

Salix Babylonika · 2013-01-12 22:41:51

honestly I think Justice said what I wanted to say here better than I did.

Obā-san · 2013-01-12 22:43:07

Mojave Music said:
honestly I think Justice said what I wanted to say here better than I did.

Justice4243 · 2013-01-12 22:45:24

From the main thread " If i were to go into a comic store as an outsider and criticize, say, the designs of the weapons and costumes, without bringing gender into the equation, i highly doubt i'd be treated the same way."

Yes, but you probably wouldn't be treated with respect either.

And it might be going far to suggest she was treated that way because some guy didn't recognize his privilege when it's very likely he has little experience with women and is likely not that great interacting with men either.

Corporal Forsythe · 2013-01-12 22:46:07

Cream said:
Why would I mess up the thread when I basically sparked it? :)

it's not you I was worried about tbh

Corporal Forsythe · 2013-01-12 22:49:13

Justice, I pretty much agree with everything you've stated there.

Hexartes · 2013-01-12 22:49:54

I think part of the problem is that you're viewing privilege in a completely different way than most of the people who use it do.

Salix Babylonika · 2013-01-12 22:50:48

Also while I agree with the majority of Corporal's points (give or take a few) I just want to point out that I'm fairly certain "species privilege" comes from a blog that actually parodies the whole SJ movement. I'm not positive, though.

I also wanna say that as someone who has (briefly) been involved with actual activist work, things like this kinda ruffle my feathers just because it's difficult for me to not see it as armchairing (or slacktivism, if you like portmanteaus).

Hexartes · 2013-01-12 22:52:27

Yeah, using "You're white, you couldn't possibly understand!" is some of the laziest activism ever.

Corporal Forsythe · 2013-01-12 22:52:53

Kexruct said:
I think part of the problem is that you're viewing privilege in a completely different way than most of the people who use it do.

This is true. They're wearing blinders, I'm not.

Salix Babylonika · 2013-01-12 22:53:50

Kexruct said:
Yeah, using "You're white, you couldn't possibly understand!" is some of the laziest activism ever.

Not sure if serious statement or sarcastic one.

Obā-san · 2013-01-12 22:54:20

I think part of the problem is that you're viewing privilege in a completely different way than most of the people who use it do.

Yeah.

Most people I think are using privilege as "a difference in viewpoint between people due to various socioeconomic factors", and I think that's what it is supposed to mean. The idea behind, say "Checking your privilege" is supposed to be realizing that you and the other person are viewing the same thing quite differently and is supposed to remind people to consider that other people may have different viewpoints on a situation due to their life experiences.

But yeah then tumblr SJ BALALKHKJHLKHIOHPIUBUB happens to it and it becomes "You are more fortunate than me, so your opinion is ENTIRELY INVALID LA LA FUCK YOU"

Obā-san · 2013-01-12 22:56:07

Kexruct said:
Yeah, using "You're white, you couldn't possibly understand!" is some of the laziest activism ever.

Not sure if serious statement or sarcastic one.

This is basically what SJ warriors have turned privilege as a concept into.

Salix Babylonika · 2013-01-12 22:57:04

Naney said:
I think part of the problem is that you're viewing privilege in a completely different way than most of the people who use it do.
Yeah.

Most people I think are using privilege as "a difference in viewpoint between people due to various socioeconomic factors", and I think that's what it is supposed to mean. The idea behind, say "Checking your privilege" is supposed to be realizing that you and the other person are viewing the same thing quite differently and is supposed to remind people to consider that other people may have different viewpoints on a situation due to their life experiences.

See this was said to me some time ago and I pointed out that that's just being considerate. At least I think so.

Obā-san · 2013-01-12 22:58:28

See this was said to me some time ago and I pointed out that that's just being considerate. At least I think so.

That's what checking your privilege is.

it's really just supposed to be being considerate of other's viewpoints.

Salix Babylonika · 2013-01-12 22:59:12

Naney said:
See this was said to me some time ago and I pointed out that that's just being considerate. At least I think so.
That's what checking your privilege is.

it's really just supposed to be being considerate of other's viewpoints.

Yeah, but the thing is, that might be what it's supposed to be, but that's not what it is.

Because again, the term's been co-opted. Which sucks, but sometimes that happens.

Hexartes · 2013-01-12 22:59:50

And that's what Social Justice "activists" think they're doing. The only problem is they want others to be considerate to them but not the other way around.

lee4hmz · 2013-01-12 23:00:31

Yeah, a lot of this comes off to me as lazy philosophy as well. For one, "privilege" in this case seems to be a special case of systemic bias, which is a definite issue (and a big problem in certain scientific circles), but it's far from the only reason people will think less of someone, and the people who talk about "privilege" on a regular basis oversimplify this to the point of meaninglessness .

I mean, before I heard about Tumblr, I thought we'd moved past the whole "visiting all the sins of someone's culture on pretty much any member of it we meet, because GOD DAMMIT THEY KNOW WHAT THEY DID" thing. Telling someone they're automatically better or worse because of their sex, color of skin, or country of origin is something we should not be condoning.

Misery · 2013-01-12 23:21:51

Is it just me or white privilege is an american concept because it doesn't really apply to worldwide.

Justice4243 · 2013-01-12 23:57:42

Is it just me or white privilege is an american concept because it doesn't really apply to worldwide.

Well, Americanand European (and it would have some basis for existing in some African countries, possibly some Southern American ones to) to some extent, but the concept definitely breaks down in countries where whites are a minority.

Unknown · 2013-01-13 00:00:17

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Tachyon · 2013-01-13 00:15:24

Yes, white privilege is a cultural phenomenon so it won't exist in all countries and societies.

In this post, i'm going to use 'privilege' in the sense of 'a difference in viewpoint between people due to various socioeconomic factors'. It doesn't directly determine who gets a cushier or rougher life, and telling people their opinions are invalid because they have privileges x, y and z is nothing more than a form of silencing.

Almost everything i wanted to say here has been said already, probably better than i would have done. i entirely agree with Naney's posts regarding privilege; i also broadly agree with Justice. There are a few things i disagree with but i'll try to keep this concise.

First of all, i can certainly see how somebody might find that post condescending, but at the same time the factual content is, as far as i can tell, sound. With that in mind, i can see somebody with a particular sense of justice being motivated to write something like that, with entirely good intentions - the problem being that the people most guilty of the problematic behaviours he addresses are also the least likely to take it seriously. Creepy behaviour and misogyny exist among geeks, as does, on the other end of the spectrum white knighting and placing women on pedestals. i've also seen hostility towards girls identifying as geeks and nerds online, mostly in the form of the whole 'geek appropriation' argument.

Secondly, Justice, i think it's true that geeks are often socially-inept or have problems with empathy, but this doesn't mean that they don't have privilege - rather, i'd say it makes it harder for them to show consideration for other people and understand their points of view, which is what awareness of privilege is really all about. This goes especially for those with a chip on their shoulder about mainstream culture, who regard themselves as belonging to a kind of egalitarian, meritocratic geek brotherhood. All the same, i agree that in such instances shaming them with accusations of privilege is not constructive (nor kind).

Thirdly, Corporal Forsythe, i am fairly sure this is a political/ideological disagreement and we're not going to agree on this, but i think the 'that's just life' argument is fundamentally unhelpful, inconsiderate and defeatist. In the same way that you don't have to be the victim of a burglary to think that theft is wrong, you don't have to be on the receiving end of social injustice to oppose it, and doing so is not, in itself, condescending.

Nobody disputes that people are different; some people are born into cushier lives than others and don't have to do a day's honest work to support themselves, others work their way up the socioeconomic ladder, and overcome numerous hardships to do so. But if you tell people they have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps or starve, some people will starve. Some people are not in a position to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, for whatever reason. Some people can't afford bootstraps.

Fourthly, the idea is not to baby minorities. The idea is to treat your fellow human beings with equal respect. Sometimes well-intentioned people get it wrong, but that doesn't invalidate the general idea. i think it's important also to note that Peggy McIntosh, being a woman, does not have male privilege, so she's not just idly speculating.

Finally, while i admit to finding the idea that 'check your privilege' has any merit as a form of activism highly dubious, i do think the concept of privileging one socioeconomic group over another has value as an analytical tool. It was already being used as such prior to McIntosh's article.

Viani · 2013-01-13 00:19:25

So "privilege" is about conveying an opinion in a certain region or base as superior or right, correct?

Tachyon · 2013-01-13 00:23:54

Can you elaborate?

Viani · 2013-01-13 00:26:50

Well, about the whole "sexy women in nerd culture" kind of thing. I'm not sure if all share the same mindset about comic book females and video game characters only being sex objects or taking on sexual object traits, but I always thought it was because a sexualized female in a game or story is ultimately more popular than a non-sexy one.

Corporal Forsythe · 2013-01-13 00:27:45

Viani, I think your question is a bit too acute here. What I'm trying to say is we're just at the opening argument and it's going to be at least a few pages before we even get to what you're asking.

Tachyon · 2013-01-13 00:33:30

Oh my days, we're not going to be debating this for 5 pages again are we?

Viani said:
Well, about the whole "sexy women in nerd culture" kind of thing. I'm not sure if all share the same mindset about comic book females and video game characters only being sex objects or taking on sexual object traits, but I always thought it was because a sexualized female in a game or story is ultimately more popular than a non-sexy one.

It ultimately comes down to what sells, or what's perceived to sell. Video games and comic books are still chiefly associated with a particular demographic which is known to buy products featuring sexy women, given certain values of 'sexy'.

Corporal Forsythe · 2013-01-13 00:37:42

a8 said:
Oh my days, we're not going to be debating this for 5 pages again are we?

That's just more time to keep it civil and thoughtful if you ask me

Viani · 2013-01-13 00:38:57

how could a discussion about this go un-civil? It seems pretty tame, unlike most religion and humanity discussions.

lee4hmz · 2013-01-13 00:40:25

Well, when this was been discussed before in the main thread, we've had a few people get overly worked up about it.

Tachyon · 2013-01-13 00:43:07

myself included. >_>

The last thread we had on this got kind of nasty in places, but this one is civil so far.

Justice4243 · 2013-01-13 00:57:05

The problem I have with this article is while things like "white knighting" and "geek appropriation" are likely attitudes that exist, the author is pointing towards a lot of other problems in the industry or overlooking other factors for the sake of making his point about privileges.

As such, it comes off as painting the whole nerd/geek subculture with a wide brush and I feel it may be accidently oversimplifying something that's a complex issue.

I thing with comics, video games, hell, maybe even games in general is the somehow got started as the domain of men in the first place.

Case and point:

So we have decades of industries catering to a certain group and a consumer pool that's bloated with members of this one group. The article is making quite a lot of assumptions about the attitudes of geeks and nerds and seems to be even attributing a low amount of females to some sort of elitism either manifesting in negative treatment of women or overly positive where the woman is put on a pedestal.

I can't help but feel this is very uncharitable of the author when it's been long established that pretty much all of the industries he's brought up are not good at making things that might sway a woman into getting into it a hobby she previously had no interest in.

Of course geeks and nerds are not magically immune from treating a woman differently, but white knighting is by no means limited to that group and elitism is of course exists in other male dominated groups as well. I'm sure women who are big into sports have to put up with all kinds of crap from participating in a hobby that's usually the domain of men.

To sum it up, I think the article could have been too interesting articles, One on the problems of attracting women to "geek interests" and one on how women are unfairly treated when it comes to hobbies that are typically the domain of men, but instead we have one article that tries to combine the two points to focus on a group and it comes off as confusing and a bit inaccurate.

Tachyon · 2013-01-13 01:00:30

The article is written by a self-identified geek, though, so i think it can be taken as read that not all geeks exhibit the behaviours he's criticizing.

i think a possible source of contention here is between people who believe there are fewer women in geek circles due to sexism in said circles, vs. people who believe there are fewer women in geek circles because geek interests are primarily male interests.

Unknown · 2013-01-13 01:04:48

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Justice4243 · 2013-01-13 01:05:08

I suppose it doesn't help that a great deal of my experience her is in the domain of Anime, and as I mentioned, this tends to be way more even in terms of ratio of the sexes.

That being said, if I got into a Comic book trivia quiz with my High School girl-friend it would be so lopsided, it wouldn't even be funny. The girl would eviscerate me and wear my organs as a hat and probably be able to explain how her organ hat could be used to fend of some alien shape-changer species that terrorized X-Force in some long forgotten issue...

Tachyon · 2013-01-13 01:12:47

Cream said:
I think it is a mixture, if we consider that the latter arises more from cultural conditioning than from psychology (or so I am convinced anyway). As Justice says, some circles are very sexist and some are not sexist at all; it depends on who you hang out with.

True, though male and female cultural conditioning is bound up with sexism to begin with.

Justice42 said:
I suppose it doesn't help that a great deal of my experience her is in the domain of Anime, and as I mentioned, this tends to be way more even in terms of ratio of the sexes.

Which surely speaks against there being any essential gender difference involved, at least.

Justice4243 · 2013-01-13 01:43:21

"True, though male and female cultural conditioning is bound up with sexism to begin with."

This was the sort of thing I think should get a bit more focus. I guess that's sort of looking in a very general sense, but It's possible to break apart the myriad aspects that make up this conditioning and address them.

"Which surely speaks against there being any essential gender difference involved, at least."

Truth be told, my experience points to these groups mostly WANTING women to join, not wanting them to stay out. The demographic is mostly full of guys who LIKE women and would like to be around them. Having women around who share the same interest is almost always a boon because it gives the guys common ground to talk about and get to know them with.

White knighting could very will be the misplaced by well intended form of trying to keep females interested in the group.

I'm not sure about elitism, I always found it pretty silly myself. Then again, nerds aren't above pissing contents even when what's on the line is "who knows the most about Star Wars" a lot of it could be knee jerk "I MUST ESTABLISH MY DOMINANCE AS A NEEEERD!" and gender is neither here nor there.

I guess I just think there's a lot of variables here and people being mindful that gender does not need to dictate how well some one can be a fan of or participate in something may not solve the issue that some nerds are going to fall over backwards for women and other nerds are going to be dicks to everyone around them.

Justice4243 · 2013-01-13 01:45:35

Not to say people shouldn't be mindful that gender does not need to dictate how well someone can be a fan of or participate in something.

But I mean...it's not like we have any fans of sexism here...

Tachyon · 2013-01-13 01:52:18

Yeah, very good point.

Justice4243 · 2013-01-13 01:55:08

Edited so that the post is less of a grammar bus crash.

Unknown · 2013-01-13 03:23:27

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Sredni Vashtar · 2013-01-13 03:45:13

a8 said:
Thirdly, Corporal Forsythe, i am fairly sure this is a political/ideological disagreement and we're not going to agree on this, but i think the 'that's just life' argument is fundamentally unhelpful, inconsiderate and defeatist. In the same way that you don't have to be the victim of a burglary to think that theft is wrong, you don't have to be on the receiving end of social injustice to oppose it, and doing so is not, in itself, condescending.

Nobody disputes that people are different; some people are born into cushier lives than others and don't have to do a day's honest work to support themselves, others work their way up the socioeconomic ladder, and overcome numerous hardships to do so. But if you tell people they have to pull themselves up by their bootstraps or starve, some people will starve. Some people are not in a position to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, for whatever reason. Some people can't afford bootstraps.

I was going to bring this up, but I think that you have addressed the issue in a far less confrontational way than I would have, which I appreciate greatly.

Corporal Forsythe · 2013-01-13 10:03:52

I'm not backing down from the point I made about life not being fair, and I'll explain.

Like I stated before, all of us live in 1st-world western country, except for a few of us who live in 1st-world southeast Asia. In our countries, we have opportunities available to all of us to better our lots in life. I took one available route and my life is better for it. It was such a route that other people shake their heads at because it required a modicum of effort and dedication to surpass. These routes are available to anyone of any sex or color and now, of any sexuality. For those who are disabled, there's government assistance. There's no excuse whatsoever to stand back and cry about it.

I'm also half-blind. It's not much of a complaint, I know. However I've been awarded Rifle Expert 3 times in the Marine Corps for my marksmanship and I was one of the very few Combat Illustrators in the Marines. I didn't flop down and cry about stereonorm and depthist, cisvisual privilege, I worked past that crybaby shit and did something about it. I still walk into walls from time to time but that's life.

Accomplishing this didn't cost me a fucking dime and it paid out in dividends. Bootstraps don't cost anything but determination and a willingness to suck it up and move on. Here's a visual to drive my point home:

These two new Marines are just days from finishing boot camp. One is an immigrant from Africa, the other is an immigrant from Asia. They joined the Marines to earn their United States citizenship. That's the President on the screen there welcoming them as new US citizens. These guys suffered through shit that none of us can conceive just to become Americans. Neither of them cried out "but, privilege!!!" in the process of doing so.

One of the best things I've ever heard was that life isn't about the hand you were dealt, but how you play it. And in the end, life isn't fair. That's the simple fucking truth of the matter, and crying about how unfair it is won't change a damn thing.

Unknown · 2013-01-13 10:41:02

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Privilege discussion 2.0 (read the OP)

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