but like, much to my own surprise, I enjoy the sort of
CYOA element of it? That sounds dumb, but I like that there's a lot of reading and lore and a world you can get absorbed into. I was legit sad when I lost my first good captain.
I've never really been into that sort of thing before so I'm struggling to articulate it.
but like, much to my own surprise, I enjoy the sort of
CYOA element of it? That sounds dumb, but I like that there's a lot of reading and lore and a world you can get absorbed into. I was legit sad when I lost my first good captain.
I've never really been into that sort of thing before so I'm struggling to articulate it.
King of Dragon Pass is also a fusion of a CYOA and simulation game that I really like.
but like, much to my own surprise, I enjoy the sort of
CYOA element of it? That sounds dumb, but I like that there's a lot of reading and lore and a world you can get absorbed into. I was legit sad when I lost my first good captain.
I've never really been into that sort of thing before so I'm struggling to articulate it.
If you want more of the lore, then Fallen London may be your speed. It's an MMO, yes, but it's one that strongly emphasizes that 'you write your own story' sort of thing.
I barely check on it these days, and yet I still have a good feel for who my character is and how he functions in the city, a reclusive dandy turned investigator
Watch_Dogs is the most inconsistently written game I've seen and it's amazing.
Like, the main character, Aiden Pearce is a vigilante. Depending on the cutscene and radio broadcast, he is either identified only as "The Fox" OR he is identified only as "The Vigilante" OR he is "The Vigilante, also known as Aiden Pearce".
There is a mission where he literally kills a man to protect his secret identity, and then after the mission, there was a radio broadcast in which they mention that Aiden Pearce is the vigilante as if it's a well known fact. At the end of the game, there's a series of news clips in which they FIRST interview an acquaintance of Aiden's, who is writing a book about his activities as the Vigilante, and THEN cut to a clip talking about how no one knows who "The Fox" is.
There's a mission where you assassinate a guy named Joseph Demarco, and then at the end, they mention that Joseph Demarco has been arrested.
This isn't even mentioning the subtler inconsistences, like Aiden being a thug who cares about nothing but his personal family 90% of the time, and who kills random security guards like it ain't no thing, and then 10% of the time we're supposed to believe he's a hero with a strong moral compass.
I cannot fucking believe no one did a readthrough of this script after Ubisoft's team of 500000 writers was done with it to check if the five billion different creative visions had lead to inconsistencies.
I just finished an LP by Chip Cheezum and I can confirm everything Myr said.
It's an absolute work of art, how last minute and cliche the plot is. I mean, they obviously, among other things, rewrote Aiden's wife and child to be his sister and nephew and it's so, so obvious
I just finished an LP by Chip Cheezum and I can confirm everything Myr said.
It's an absolute work of art, how last minute and cliche the plot is. I mean, they obviously, among other things, rewrote Aiden's wife and child to be his sister and nephew and it's so, so obvious
Around the time this shift produced the line "He's got a lot of his uncle in him" they should have thought better.
but like, much to my own surprise, I enjoy the sort of
CYOA element of it? That sounds dumb, but I like that there's a lot of reading and lore and a world you can get absorbed into. I was legit sad when I lost my first good captain.
I've never really been into that sort of thing before so I'm struggling to articulate it.
King of Dragon Pass is also a fusion of a CYOA and simulation game that I really like.
To elaborate on this: as far as I understand it, a playthrough of Sunless Sea, recounted afterwards, sounds like an apocalyptic journal from a William Hope Hodgson story. A play-through of King of Dragon Pass, when recounted afterwards, sounds like an Norse saga where the boundaries between myth and history are not sharply drawn.
The crafting recipes in Divinity: Original Sin are fucking weird. Most of your early attribute gear comes from sprinkling pixie dust on random severed body parts and threading it through with thread made from human hair. Seriously wtf.
Undertale is not this mysterious wondrous new thing whose existence and enjoyability constitute a miracle.
It takes its lineage basically from old RPGs (JRPGs and WRPGs, actually) which had a variety of actions -- LOOK, CHECK, TALK, etc., rather than how more recent RPGs (especially JRPGs) have automated this process into the most relevant options -- but puts these options into the encounter screen rather than the map screen. This is essentially like how text adventure games work in their encounters, so one could say that this feature's lineage comes from text adventures as well. The purpose of doing this is to provide pathing options, giving a structured way to portray a greater variety of outcomes depending on the player's choices of actions.
This sort of pathing has been done before in text adventures, and has been explored in JRPGs as well, but just not to as much depth. As has been noted by many, its closest predecessor in its presentation style is probably Earthbound, which does incorporate non-combat actions into a JRPG format to some extent, just not as much of an extent as Undertale does. Meanwhile, text adventures are a largely neglected genre these days, due to their lack of immediate visual appeal, though their simple interface actually easily allows for a lot more pathing options -- and Undertale takes advantage of this, albeit including a GUI with it.
As an essentially separable feature, Undertale also incorporates various action game elements (timed hits, platforming, and shmup action) in the form of microgames, to replace the RNG of combat actions that is typically used by JRPGs.
Undertale is not this mysterious wondrous new thing whose existence and enjoyability constitute a miracle.
Do people really think it is? I don't go on Tumblr or whatever, but I haven't really noticed anyone claiming it was amazingly unique and innovative, at least mechanically speaking. It's just a good game.
i think Undertale is amazingly unique and innovative
its influences are perfectly evident, but it made expert use of the concepts it incorporated; the story is extremely well-written and the gameplay is very smoothly integrated into that story, so although the mechanics themselves aren't new, i don't know of any other game which deployed them in that specific way
of course it hasn't "made the rest of the medium irrelevant", that's silly
but it's a lot better than the vast majority of video games that i have played, and it's not like i dislike games in general
It's just not this groundbreaking new development that represents the next evolution of the JRPG and renders the past obsolete or something. It is neither a miracle nor something that sets some new standard and obsoletes what came before it.
Though the experiences it can produce can be miracles. :)
It is if nothing else a revelation in that it shows that you can use the compelling underlying mechanics of a JRPG without couching those mechanics in the player being violent.
That's a way bigger deal than people seem to think.
i still haven't had the heart to play it again, but i don't know if it'd be as good the second time around in any case
i feel sort of sad about this, which i know is silly, but i really liked having a video game i was that excited about, and then it was over and it was like, now what?
having said which, 999 was *very good indeed*, and i think i may have appreciated what it was doing more as a result of coming at it so soon after Undertale
having said which, 999 was *very good indeed*, and i think i may have appreciated what it was doing more as a result of coming at it so soon after Undertale
i feel sort of sad about this, which i know is silly, but i really liked having a video game i was that excited about, and then it was over and it was like, now what?
I sometimes feel this way about inspiring stories that I am in the middle of or have recently finished reading/watching/playing which I end up relating to my life in various ways. Some time after finishing it, I find myself thirsting again for that sort of inspiration, that sort of relatability.
So. The primal fight for the next patch of FFXIV is Sephirot/Fiend of the Warring Triad. We've known that for a few weeks. But now they've revealed that his theme is a remix of The Fierce Battle.
It is if nothing else a revelation in that it shows that you can use the compelling underlying mechanics of a JRPG without couching those mechanics in the player being violent.
That's a way bigger deal than people seem to think.
I disagree; on a systemic basis, its way of dealing with encounters nonviolently could easily pass as a combat system. While its (potential) nonviolence is sincere from a narrative perspective, its mechanical nonviolence isn't as relevant as many give it credit for. Its nonviolence is close enough to an alternative combat system, and we perceive it to be otherwise due to context.
In any case, violence is usually misunderstood by game designers and developers as much as anyone else. Few games include, for instance, simple psychological impact -- how often to opponents run once you've killed a few of their comrades? Actual combat in numbers relies upon the psychological impact of defeat, so more opponents can be defeated by flight or surrender. Additionally, very few games understand the distinction between winning combat and killing an opponent; in a clean martial execution of strategy and technique, one wins before an opponent is killed, as that is the moment when one can threaten their opponent without being under threat themselves. Chess provides a good game example, as the rules forbid suicidal piece placements that leave the king exposed for more than the turn it's threatened. Sun Tzu also pushes this point pretty hard; the perfect martial victory is bloodless within his strategic discipline.
The general point here is that, given how convenient violent conflict is as a source of repeatable mechanical engagement, we've got a long way to go developing better combat before nonviolent conflict resolution can reach comparable depths. This is illustrated, I think, rather than contradicted by Undertale's use of alternative combat systems to depict nonviolence. To my mind, games like the Metal Gear series (used to) do a better job of nonviolent (or nonlethal) conflict resolution, all the more due to the expectation that a soldier would have no qualms shooting down an opponent. I always found it a little odd that many used Spec Ops: The Line as a foil to the likes of Call of Duty when the Metal Gear series already existed (although I will freely admit that Metal Gear is often ridiculous as all hell, #JustKojimaThings).
I realise you're talking more specifically about JRPGs, but we have to remember that JRPG systems started life as home console-appropriate adaptations of tabletop game combat systems. The genre itself is as close to inherently couched in violence as can be, and its diversions from that have so far been in dungeon puzzle solving or in social interactions with other characters -- and JRPGs are notorious for giving limited control of that to players, outside individual examples like Persona.
tl;dr: I find nonviolence a nonissue, because a game overtly designed around nonviolent actions will either mechanically forbid violence or make it an inherently poor option for problem solving. Plenty of "stealth" games don't seem to understand this part of the balance equation (looking at you, Dishonored, Assassin's Creed, Shadow of Mordor, etc.), but the path of mechanical nonviolence is well trod already.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
I don't view Undertale's nonviolence system to be a violence system. It's got more in common with rhythm games or Frogger. Violence is committed against you, and you must avoid it, but the system itself is separate from the system that inflicts violence. And narrative perspective counts for a lot, otherwise the Souls games would just be wireframe models whacking other wireframe models in a wireframe land wielding wireframe sticks.
The larger issue here is priorities. Everyone wants a big, sexy game, to make lots of money, or they want a critical darling. Games either go to the grindhouse or the arthouse, and there's no real place for actual, risky experimentation.
Undertale is one of the few games I've encountered that offers the choice between violence and non-violence and makes something of it. It's fine; the problem is that there aren't more.
And I love violence in video games. It's great. I still want a good, wuxia-inspired, character action game that plays slickly, takes into consideration Daoistic principles, and really captures that high-flying, swashbuckling feelings. But the mechanical part of non-violence in video games is very lacking, and better, more sophisticated systems of violence isn't going to help its counterpart.
It is if nothing else a revelation in that it shows that you can use the compelling underlying mechanics of a JRPG without couching those mechanics in the player being violent.
That's a way bigger deal than people seem to think.
I disagree; on a systemic basis, its way of dealing with encounters nonviolently could easily pass as a combat system. While its (potential) nonviolence is sincere from a narrative perspective, its mechanical nonviolence isn't as relevant as many give it credit for. Its nonviolence is close enough to an alternative combat system, and we perceive it to be otherwise due to context.
That was literally my point though
There is nothing inherently violent about pressing a menu option, it is just that that style of gameplay is most associated with a genre that uses selection of an item on a menu to abstract the act of combat. But that's just an association, it is not innate to that style of gameplay.
But the mechanical part of non-violence in video games is very lacking, and better, more sophisticated systems of violence isn't going to help its counterpart.
This is the part where I disagree most significantly, because I believe the sophistication of different kinds of systems go hand-in-hand, even if they're not necessarily within the same game. When we break all this down, the systems that exist in games are usually forms of conflict resolution, whether we're playing something as broad as an RPG or something as specific as a racing game. Even something like the Souls games can be broken down into geometry-based problems, especially Bloodborne -- which line intersects the object most effectively before its own extension reaches the object I'm defending? A reductionist argument might accuse it of being glorified Pong, because oneself and the opponent are basically trying to make optimal geometric calculations at higher levels of play.
I will grant you that violence-as-conflict-resolution is disproportionately represented as things stand, but I don't find nonviolent conflict resolution systems lacking where they appear (except in cases where they share space with violent means, and are inferior in terms of balance). Whole genres, in fact, have little or nothing to do with violence -- racing games and puzzle games spring to mind. They may be underutilised, but I wouldn't call their mechanical sophistication into question.
Look at it like this: Which games don't we tend to play as an audience? At a guess, I'd say that most people here probably have small interest in sports video games and limited interest in racing games, especially those that are closely tied to gearhead culture. As "hardcore" (for excruciating lack of a better term) gamers, we're more likely, collectively, to play games that offer something diverse, something novel, something finely tuned, or some combination of the above. RPGs, strategy games, or headliners like Bayonetta. We self-select violent games, then ignore the nonviolent ones, probably in part because many of those are actually more guilty of hypermasculinity than the undeath simulation series, Dark Souls.
A metaphor I'd like to leave here comes from music. When one learns to play a genre of music, one is also learning how not to play that genre of music, if you catch my drift. If you can play within the minor pentatonic scale with the inclusion of the flat fifth, you have both the capacity to play the blues and avoid the blues. If someone understands what violence really is (usually a physical implementation of a social, economic, or political motive), then more sophisticated combat and sophisticated non-combat are clarified together. That's why I don't think there's any particular need for an emphasis on nonviolence; increased nonviolent prevalence will come when video games provide a broader understanding of violence. The first steps towards that have been taken, and that's why we have both Undertale and Metal Gear Solid V.
Sorry to continue the longpost, but it's worth remembering that game designers and developers are typically not the kinds of people that have extensive first-hand experience or understanding of violence in the first place. It's a middle-class, first-world kind of job in most cases -- the single most bubbled group against the realities, outcomes, and profits of violence. It's usually when games come from a position of broader understanding that violence and nonviolence are discussed well together; I continue to look forward to contributions to the medium from peoples of developing nations for partially this reason. What does a war game developed by resettled refugees play like? I think we'll know more about nonviolence in games when we can answer questions like that.
tl;dr: I believe we're already well on the way to a generation of games that is going to be both more responsible about the inclusion of violence and include less violence overall, because I believe understanding conflict resolution by either means stems from the same seed.
It is if nothing else a revelation in that it shows that you can use the compelling underlying mechanics of a JRPG without couching those mechanics in the player being violent.
That's a way bigger deal than people seem to think.
I disagree; on a systemic basis, its way of dealing with encounters nonviolently could easily pass as a combat system. While its (potential) nonviolence is sincere from a narrative perspective, its mechanical nonviolence isn't as relevant as many give it credit for. Its nonviolence is close enough to an alternative combat system, and we perceive it to be otherwise due to context.
That was literally my point though
There is nothing inherently violent about pressing a menu option, it is just that that style of gameplay is most associated with a genre that uses selection of an item on a menu to abstract the act of combat. But that's just an association, it is not innate to that style of gameplay.
Man is a most complex simple creature: see what he weaves, and how base his reasons for doing so.
Yes, I know there are plenty of non-violent video games out there. One of my favorite games is Threes. It's a number-based puzzle game with cute blocky characters and jazzy music.
I'm specifically talking about nonviolent-options in video games that give you the choice between both. This specific nonviolent option is always, always lacking. Undertale is the exception in this trend, in that the mechanical weight, the "fun" part, is in the nonviolent option.
Comments
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
I barely check on it these days, and yet I still have a good feel for who my character is and how he functions in the city, a reclusive dandy turned investigator
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
There's your standard Premium account, 7 dollars a month, but the game is perfectly playable without it.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Check your gazeteer. Hover your mouse over the relevant icon and it should pop up
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
Mr Palmerston is always in the uppermost row of the map. East of Codex, west of Irem
it's not that op since the gold feathers are fairly uncommon, although BK is pretty easy in general
it only gave me trouble because it was the first game i really played at length
There is a mission where he literally kills a man to protect his secret identity, and then after the mission, there was a radio broadcast in which they mention that Aiden Pearce is the vigilante as if it's a well known fact. At the end of the game, there's a series of news clips in which they FIRST interview an acquaintance of Aiden's, who is writing a book about his activities as the Vigilante, and THEN cut to a clip talking about how no one knows who "The Fox" is.
Also, (a character named) Joe DeMarco is also featured in The Shivah, lol.
Assassin poems, Poems that shoot
guns. Poems that wrestle cops into alleys
and take their weapons leaving them dead
It's an absolute work of art, how last minute and cliche the plot is. I mean, they obviously, among other things, rewrote Aiden's wife and child to be his sister and nephew and it's so, so obvious
It takes its lineage basically from old RPGs (JRPGs and WRPGs, actually) which had a variety of actions -- LOOK, CHECK, TALK, etc., rather than how more recent RPGs (especially JRPGs) have automated this process into the most relevant options -- but puts these options into the encounter screen rather than the map screen. This is essentially like how text adventure games work in their encounters, so one could say that this feature's lineage comes from text adventures as well. The purpose of doing this is to provide pathing options, giving a structured way to portray a greater variety of outcomes depending on the player's choices of actions.
This sort of pathing has been done before in text adventures, and has been explored in JRPGs as well, but just not to as much depth. As has been noted by many, its closest predecessor in its presentation style is probably Earthbound, which does incorporate non-combat actions into a JRPG format to some extent, just not as much of an extent as Undertale does. Meanwhile, text adventures are a largely neglected genre these days, due to their lack of immediate visual appeal, though their simple interface actually easily allows for a lot more pathing options -- and Undertale takes advantage of this, albeit including a GUI with it.
As an essentially separable feature, Undertale also incorporates various action game elements (timed hits, platforming, and shmup action) in the form of microgames, to replace the RNG of combat actions that is typically used by JRPGs.
its influences are perfectly evident, but it made expert use of the concepts it incorporated; the story is extremely well-written and the gameplay is very smoothly integrated into that story, so although the mechanics themselves aren't new, i don't know of any other game which deployed them in that specific way
of course it hasn't "made the rest of the medium irrelevant", that's silly
but it's a lot better than the vast majority of video games that i have played, and it's not like i dislike games in general
It's just not this groundbreaking new development that represents the next evolution of the JRPG and renders the past obsolete or something. It is neither a miracle nor something that sets some new standard and obsoletes what came before it.
Though the experiences it can produce can be miracles. :)
That's a way bigger deal than people seem to think.
That said, I'm not sure if it's the type of game that I could play more than once.
i feel sort of sad about this, which i know is silly, but i really liked having a video game i was that excited about, and then it was over and it was like, now what?
having said which, 999 was *very good indeed*, and i think i may have appreciated what it was doing more as a result of coming at it so soon after Undertale
It's like extra wind in my sails.
still has quite a few problems, but not enough to really hamper my enjoyment.
There is nothing inherently violent about pressing a menu option, it is just that that style of gameplay is most associated with a genre that uses selection of an item on a menu to abstract the act of combat. But that's just an association, it is not innate to that style of gameplay.