Scottish independence
Sounds better now.
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Comments
do what thou wilt
Honestly, I think Sinn Féin wanting to call a vote to reunify Ireland is even wilder and more worrisome.
Of course there's a tendency among Canadians to project opinions about Quebec on any other country that does this kind of thing.
That would be like trying to pander to New York if Texas seceded.
it might be a little reversed this time
however i don't think it's entirely unreasonable for me to have strong opinions on this given
The second one feels a little sketchy to me though? Like, it being good for the rest of the UK if Scotland stays in seems like a reason to hope the result goes that way, but not really an argument for why they shouldn't be independant.
Like idk, I don't really feel like "I don't have a strong opinion on whether Scotland should be independent" is mutually exclusive of "I hope Scotland stays in because it's better for the rest of us". They're not answering exactly the same question.
But I mean, I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't have an opinion on the matter, just that it seems weird from my perspective.
@Tatterhood: It might be cynical, but practical, to feel that way. It's kinda like saying that Texas should leave the US since that will get rid of a big chunk of Congressional Republicans and Repub EVs.
No argument from me, and i would never cite that to a Scottish person as an argument against secession.
Nevertheless the idea of Americans with Scottish heritage hoping for the breakup of my country did strike me as a little offensive and insensitive? idk, i guess i place less emphasis on heritage than a lot of people. To me it makes more sense for me to be concerned with point 2; it's unlikely relations between the two countries would break down to the point where i'd be unable to visit my family up there, so point 1 affects me personally less.
Regardless i do personally feel independence would be a good thing for Scotland, mainly because of the state the UK has gotten to at this point. i'm allowed to have an opinion, surely?
Lib-Dems are committed to 'centrism', and Wales is by no means one of the more left-wing parts of the country, but it's not conservative to the extent of much of England.
Northern Ireland is politically very complex - and notoriously volatile, albeit much less so than it was 18 years ago (i gather there's a bit of a generational gap involved). Traditionally it's seen as a country divided between Irish Republicanism and British Unionism; the former tends to be associated with Catholicism and the latter with Protestantism. Neither maps cleanly onto left-vs-right, though there is a correlation between Republicanism, Catholicism and the left, and between Unionism, Protestantism and the right. The (Unionist) UUP are allied with the Conservatives, and the (Republican) SDLP are allied with Labour, but neither is the largest party associated with those respective movements.
The DUP (NI's largest right-wing and Unionist party) is pretty horrifying, though.
To be clear though, I was never saying that people shouldn't be allowed an opinion.
Because I'm thinking about the results (Wales narrowly going for Leave and NI going for Remain, specifically) and wondering how they relate to this.
The presentation of the issue of the public was very much dominated by a dispute within the Conservative party. Right vs. "alt-right"/far right. The response of the left has been muddled, with Labour leader Corbyn expressing only mild, qualified support for the Remain campaign, while one of the most prominent figures in the Leave campaign was Labour MP Gisela Stuart.
i don't know why Wales voted the way it did (even UKIP were surprised!), but there are some things maybe worth noting. One is that working-class Labour voters tended to vote Leave, and there were a lot of those in Wales. To many, this vote seems to have been seized upon as a way to hit back against the establishment which Brussels and David Cameron are both taken to represent; furthermore, immigration, and the associated fears of job loss and terrorism, is a widespread popular concern which the Remain campaign did little to address. Although the Welsh Nationalist party Plaid Cymru sided with Remain, their support was heavily qualified for reasons similar to Corbyn's: dissatisfaction with the EU, coupled with the hope of reforming it from within. Also perhaps worth noting that Wales is not nearly as international in its outlook as Scotland.
As for Northern Ireland, the votes correspond fairly closely to regional demographics. Areas supportive of Republicanism tended towards Remain, as you might expect (since the Republic of Ireland is in the EU). Areas supportive of Unionism actually tended towards Leave, so it just comes down to numbers.
I guess it became a matter of regional issues: in NI it broke along Republicanism/Unionism lines, in Scotland it was about wanting to remain in the EU (which seems to be the one constant between this and the recently-past independence referendum), and in England and Wales it was about anti-establishment anger at "the system".
Would you say this makes sense or am I missing any significant pieces?
The biggest piece i think you may be missing is the extent to which racism and xenophobia played a role in proceedings. The UK is, for the most part, very white. The sole large region of England to vote majority Remain was London (multicultural, international), and this is by no means a coincidence. Wales is extremely white.
The North-South divide may be a bit of a red herring here, because most of the North of England also voted Leave.
also lawson sounds like a jerk already
Yes, but consider the factor Jane mentioned, national identity and associated prejudices. Scotland has a very strong national identity, which sees itself in opposition to English national identity. NI is divided between British and Irish national identities, which are heavily opposed, verging on mutual exclusivity.
In Wales it's a lot less clear-cut. In some regions, typically the places where the Welsh language is most commonly spoken, there does exist a clear Welsh national identity. In others, not so much. You have to bear in mind, Wales was annexed by the English way back in the 13th century, and for centuries was legally considered part of England. In that time the Welsh language and culture were actively suppressed, and plenty of people moved there who did not consider themselves Welsh. There were incremental steps towards the recognition of Wales as a distinct nation from the late 19th century onwards, culminating in devolution in the 1990s, but even then this passed only by a narrow margin and was opposed in many places, particularly those bordering England.
The point i'm trying to impress here is not that there isn't a distinct Welsh national identity (there certainly is, and many people feel very strongly about it), but that it's felt more strongly in some places than in others. There are parts of Wales where you can go and are unlikely to hear a word of Welsh spoken. Residents of these places do not think of themselves as English, but there is significant cultural overlap. Consequently, the prejudices in play are different from those in Scotland and Northern Ireland.