What's an Aesop that you just can't stand?

Tnu1138

I  wasen't sure how to do this topic so I just decided to go with this angle. What are Aesops that you can't stand or are ju st plain sick of and why?

Obā-san

Bondage is bad.

Manly McMacho

Pot is bad.

Sex is bad.

Women being topless in public is bad. Most of you fuckers have drank from that, what's the big deal.

Tnu1138

Add that to my list of Aesops I can't stand. Though to me these should be obvio us I'm not sure why thye're still a big thing.

Manly McMacho

Because media watchdogs and angry (sexy) nuns.

Tnu1138

The churces are real hypocrites. You kn o the Vatican  has orginized coverups on molestation victims by clergymen?

Manly McMacho

Come on dude, it's 2012. Everyone's known that for at least a decade or so now.

Tnu1138

I just learned it. At any rate I wouldn't shed a tear if that sorry excuse for a country went the way of Rome under Nero.

Justice4243

Ummm, not happening, Catholicism is WAY too big at the moment.

And vM is right, old news is old.

Also, that isn't an aesop.

Green aesops mostly piss me off. Except for Wall-E. 

Frickin' AWESOME.

Tnu1138

The biggest one that rubs me the wrong way is an ything that ammounts to "move on and let go of the past"

Haven

Anvilicious anti-alcohol aesops are particularly irksome to me sometimes, I think because I got a lot of that growing up.

Tnu1138

They're right. Alcahol is prob abl7y more danghero us then mo st illegal drugs.

Manly McMacho

Most really old, outdated aesops that people cling to for some reason bug me, outside of "treat people the way you want to be treated" but that's not outdated at all so, doesn't count.

^While I agree, advocating moderation instead of abstaining from it entirely is more likely to yield pleasurable results IMO.

Tnu1138

I won't touch the stuff myself I've lived with an alcoholic before.

Manly McMacho

Fair enough.

Justice4243

"Anvilicious anti-alcohol aesops are particularly irksome to me sometimes, I think because I got a lot of that growing up."

Preach it, broseph. 

I also feel the same about tobacco use. We've over saturated ourselves with "THESE THINGS WILL KILL YOU!" messages to the point where they're hard to take seriously.

Manly McMacho

Oh god, seconded, and this is coming from someone who hates cigarettes.

Imipolex G

Anything that suggests you should just go along with what everyone else is thinking/doing.

Also, the topless one.

Beholder

Anything that suggests you should just go along with what everyone else is thinking/doing.

This

Boney

"Be yourself."

It's a great aesop, but the misuse is just insane.

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Manly McMacho

I think Lucas is talking about when the aesop is used to mean "don't work on any of your flaws, even if you're a mass murderer, it's totally not a problem you need to work on, it's just your personality". Or, he may not, but that's the main way I've seen it misused (not with murderers specifically, but, eh).

Anything that suggests you should just go along with what everyone else is thinking/doing.

Thirded.

Justice4243

Does that one come up a lot? I'm much more familiar with the one about being and individual.

Which can go askew as mentioned above.

Tnu1138

The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities.
Ayn Rand

Manly McMacho

^^I've seen it used both seriously and as a form of parody, but mostly just the latter. It's definitely getting less and less common.

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Boney

Yeah, that's what i meant.

I'm tempted to say Ayn Rand's a bad person, but I realize she's just ignorant.

Ace Rimmer

I'd say that Rand's upbringing in the Russian Empire and what happened to her father in Soviet Union shaped her mindset.

Tnu1138

I don 't understand why ev erybody is so quick to attack Rand. Rather then adressing the point made you simply attack who said it as a reflex. How would you all have taken the quote if it were presented on its own or said it was from someone else?

Ace Rimmer

^
What she suggested is

a)Fucking insane

b) Unworkable on the nation state level.

Tnu1138

Those aren't arguments. You're saying that she's wrong because she's wrong essentially. You dismiss her out of hand simply for being who she is. You all ganged up on her and frankly proved her point, and if her ideas are that unworkable that doesn't speak well for the future. I don't know about you, but I don't want to live in  a world where individual freedom and personal responsibility are unworkable and that you need a big government state in order for the world to work. Just sounds like the worst possible world to live in.

Ace Rimmer

I haven't dismissed what she is saying out of hand though. Dude, I studied what L-F economics did to the social fabric of my country 20 years ago and I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

You're assuming shit about me for no reason just because I don't like Rand's positions.

Tnu1138

Like I said. Way to take away any sense of hope for the future. If free markets, individualism, and personal liberty outside of the collective will are unworkable what kind of sad world is that?

Ace Rimmer

>Implying free markets are good.

But theres no use continuing this argument because you're an American and I am not so we'll just end up butting heads without convincing the other.

Tnu1138

>Implying that free markets are bad

You see I can do that too, and I'm not sure what nationality has to do with it. I really don't have any faith in the nation as a unit.

Ace Rimmer

Fine, Do you want to know what I hate about Ayn Rand?

Its her rigid assumption that an unregulated free market will some how be a responsible market despite the evidence that companies will just cut corners and the social / environmental costs be dammed.

I also don't like the fact that she assumes people with money wont oppress the bottom and there be no government to counter this.

Haven

I don 't understand why ev erybody is so quick to attack Rand. Rather then adressing the point made you simply attack who said it as a reflex. How would you all have taken the quote if it were presented on its own or said it was from someone else?

On its own the quote seems hollow to me: it's just a piece of logical sleight of hand that attempts to make the proposition "individual rights" more appealing by associating it with "minorities". It sounds like it's just sophistry, but it's hard to be sure because it doesn't contain any information about what's meant by "individual rights", other than if you're against them you're against "minorities". 

I don't think it's unreasonable to bring Ayn Rand herself into this, because the quote means nothing without a definition of individual rights, which is something she likes to supply. As Whale said, her background may make it more understandable (albeit still an attempt to semiotically cash in on someone else's hard work), but to me personally, saying the advocacy of economic deregulation is a struggle as important as the Civil Rights movement is just ludicrous.

Preach it, broseph. 

I also feel the same about tobacco use. We've over saturated ourselves with "THESE THINGS WILL KILL YOU!" messages to the point where they're hard to take seriously.

Yeah. :| Responsibility is important, but making it so all-or-nothing is a terrible way to teach it.

Tnu1138

and you're not assuming by default that she is wrong? You're assuming that big government will be o ur saviors and protect us from the evil rich people. You're assuming that all businesses will cut corners and screw people ver given the chance. Assuming the abso lute worst case scenario and that iin the case that they do that there will be no competition in the market to counteract them.

Boney

Loaded language isn't an argument Tnu.

Justice4243

Tnu, did you miss this post:

"Its her rigid assumption that an unregulated free market will some how be a responsible market despite the evidence that companies will just cut corners and the social / environmental costs be dammed."

Emphasis mine, we've seen plenty of evidence that even in somewhat regulated markets that big business often care much more about money than they do their customers or even employees.

It's not fair of you to start strawmaing, here.

Tnu1138

 Whatever. I give up. If you guys are right then what's the point of even trying anymore? There's no future.

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Tnu1138

Not a good future. What you all describe is the framework for an unwinnable future that will turn out bad no matter what. We either get Socialist Dictatorships or Corporatist ones.

Ace Rimmer

^

Why is the opposite of a Randian state a dictatorship?

Tnu1138

Because the opposite of small government and focus on the rights of the individual is a state where the government controles everything be it Fascism or Marxism. Where the individual is screwed over by the will of the collective.

Ace Rimmer

Except that doesn't happen in countries with a tradition of Democracy though.

Tnu1138

Yeah it does It can happen anywere. In fact Democracy as a whole is a system that screws over the individual by the collective will.

Ace Rimmer

Yeah, I'm gonna need some sauce with that.

Tnu1138

Pardon?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Wave

Boney

Not immune =/= will lead to

Boney

Also, 

Marxism.

I'm 0k with this.