Puella Magi Madoka Magica

Anonus

There had been a prior thread on this series, but Cream was its OP and as such it is now broken.

So here is another one.

Tanya

Hooray, my wish was for someone to create another thread about this subject in the HH, what could go wrong.

Anonus

Episode 4:

Holy shit, is that a Heaven's Gate stand-in?

Fossilmaiden

The concept is hardly a new one.

Sredni Vashtar

^^ More like an Aum Shinrikyo stand-in, but the principle is the same.

Things get really fun down the line. Just wait.

Yarrun XIX

I am going to watch this series, starting this Sunday.

I'm not ready for this.

Sredni Vashtar

Just skim both halves of Goethe's Faust and watch an episode or two of Cardcaptor Sakura and you'll be... 50% prepared?

I exaggerate, but whatever. You'll be fine.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

<3

Tachyon

i still need to read Faust.  i saw a movie of it once, but it wasn't an adaptation of Goethe's script afaik.

But i enjoyed this series just fine, even if i presumably missed some of the allusions or symbolism.

Yarrun XIX

I've already watched one episode (though I probably need to rewatch it; it's been a few months)

I understand that everything goes to crud in episode 3.

And I know a good deal about Homura and what her deal is

I hope this will be enough.

Sredni Vashtar

^^ You probably didn't miss much, although I could probably give a rundown of all the esoterica if you're interested.

^ Well, context changes everything. As I said in the last thread: I theoretically knew a lot going into this show, but reading about something and experiencing are very different things.

Previous Calica

I went into PMMM "blind" in that I watched as it happened, with a bunch of other people through IRC.  Maybe I should rewatch, so that I don't have to split my reading time between the subtitles and IRC; I can read fast, but I think I still missed stuff.

Imipolex G

Goethe's Faust is badass

All I know about this series is Mami's mammies

Anonus

Also Mami gets eaten by a candy-themed monster in the third episode

It's more tragic than I'm making it sound

Imipolex G

I am aware of that as well, to be honest, it makes me less interested in watching the series.

Viani

Madoka dies

Miss Miko Mayonegg

imiiiiiiiii watch it :o You must!!!

Imipolex G

is that an order?

Miss Miko Mayonegg

Well, I can't order you to do things, but I think you should. ^_^

Sredni Vashtar

Well, I can't order you to do things, but I think you should. ^_^

I can!

DO THIS, IMIPÖLEX G! WATCH PUELLA MAGI MADOKA MAGICA! OBEY ME!

Imipolex G

nope

Sredni Vashtar

*....*

._.

Imipolex G

I'm not very obedient, usually

Sredni Vashtar

OK, I will simply suggest that you watch this show rather than demand it. It is a very enjoyable experience, particularly if you are into the visual storytelling aspect of animation.

Tanya

Imipölex G said:

I'm not very obedient, usually

You're a loose canon heaper, who doesn't play by the rules.

But darn it Imi, you get results.

Anonus

I like the paper-cutout effects for the Witches' labyrinths, even if it does unsettle me.

Princess Alice

How far did you get, AU?

Sredni Vashtar

^^ How far in are you now? Road ninja, oh no.

Anonus

I am in the middle of episode 5

Tanya

Central Avenue said:

How far did you get, AU?

Farther than you'd think, but not as far as you'd hoped.

Also I too am curious.

Sredni Vashtar

They get trippier. They also start to make more sense. Everything starts to make more sense. It's all very...

Imipolex G

Well, trippy is good.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

The wiki will explain many details you don't notice the first time. :D In particular, the runes and imagery in the labyrinths have some interesting messages that (aside from referencing Faust a lot) reveal some details of the witches' backstories.

SF_Sorrow

All for more feels

Princess Alice

Anonus said:

I am in the middle of episode 5

!!

You surpassed me

I'd catch up but I'm high on Hussie right now

Tanya

Earthlight Ray said:

The wiki will explain many details you don't notice the first time. :D In particular, the runes and imagery in the labyrinths have some interesting messages that (aside from referencing Faust a lot) reveal some details of the witches' backstories.

I wonder if there's any deep meaning to referencing Faust.

Or maybe as raocow would say, the attention called to the guy is simply a Faust-ade.

Miss Miko Mayonegg

There is a significant thematic meaning in referencing Faust. :)

Tanya

Earthlight Ray said:

There is a significant thematic meaning in referencing Faust. :)

I know, I just wanted to use the pun of "Faust-ade" or Faust and Facade.

I'm surprised I haven't seen the pun of Faust-ade before though, considering the meaning behind both words, it seems like a natural combination.

Tachyon

Sredni Vashtar said:

^^ You probably didn't miss much, although I could probably give a rundown of all the esoterica if you're interested.

i am interested!

Sredni Vashtar

Well, here's what I can immediately remember:

[If we take Homura as our Faust analogue, her character arc basically becomes a retelling of all the major plot points in Goethe's play, particularly in how Faust relationship with Gretchen changes. The initial wish parallel's Faust's initial bargain, albeit on less selfish terms: Faust wishes to gain Gretchen's love through showing her wealth and miraculous power; Homura merely wants Madoka to live. In both cases, the wish backfires spectacularly, with Madoka's asking Homura to destroy her soul-gem being the mirror to Faust visiting the mad and dying Gretchen in a dungeon at the end of Part One. There is even a nod toward the end of that episode to Mephistopheles' chilling assessment ("She is judged.") in the form of Kyuubey's little spiel about witch!Madoka destroying the world.

Another, more interesting nod comes in the form of Madoka's witch name, given only in supplemental materials: Kriemhild Gretchen. Aside from taking the name of Faust's lover in Gretchen, Kriemhild is also the name of a major player in the Niebelungenlied. Specifically, she was madly in love with the hero Siegfried, who spurned her in favour of a woman (Brünhild) that later orchestrated his death by the hand of Kriemhild's own brother, Gunther. Subsequently, she swears her revenge and takes it in epic and brutal fashion. Given the nature of her despair and betrayal inherent in her situation and the all-encompassing nature of her barrier (as seen briefly), this is pretty appropriate. There's more to that, but I would need to be more familiar with the legend cycle in question to give you all the details.

The Walpurgisnacht thing is probably the most straightforward shout-out: There are two Walpurgisnacht-related interludes in Faust, both heavily satirical and filled with bizarre caricatures—not unlike the parade of surreal carnival-like figments that accompany said entity. The form that witch!Madoka takes is also an allusion to the feast: The shape is a Brocken spectre, an optical illusion often seen from certain mountains where witches were said to gather on Walpurgisnacht.

Back to Homura's arc for the big finish: The end of episode eleven and the better part of episode twelve—particularly the "space hug"—is basically just one giant, sparkly reprise of the last three scenes of Faust. Like so: Faust, now very old, blind and half-mad, stumbles out into a courtyard where he hears men working (actually a crew of demons lead by Mephistopheles digging his grave) and dies; Mephistopheles then claims his soul and drags him to Hell, but seeing his genuine penitence (and urged by Gretchen's pure soul), the Virgin Mary sends down angels to bear Faust up to Heaven. He is redeemed, Mephistopheles grouses, everyone else is happy, and the play ends.

Now, here's where things get interesting (i.e. meta as hell): The entire point behind Goethe's Faust was one of overturning the classic tragedy stereotypes by examining them in the context of a well-known tragic tale, simultaneously creating a biting topical satire of literary and cultural mores and a moving drama about personal redemption. It's a very funny, clever play, yet also a moving one; it is also a massive deconstruction, not only in content but in form, using a mix of metered verse, prose and even free verse to tell its story, often with allusions to Classical Greek and Roman forms in addition to what were then fairly new (albeit cliché) Romantic and proto-Symbolist tropes and idioms. Likewise, Madoka Magica uses the Faust story—specifically, Goethe's Faust—to explore the magical girl concept in a deconstructive manner, ultimately subverting audience expectations not merely through setting an ostensibly cheery (if problematic) subject to such a dark tune, but by ending with a sudden uplift. Goethe said that he could never write a straight tragedy, and he proved it; by doing the same, Madoka Magica not only pays homage to the work it draws from, but actually shares its spirit, which is remarkably rare and, strange as it sounds, incredibly deep.]

Sredni Vashtar

Also, a small aside: [Sayaka's arc is uncannily like that of Christopher Marlowe's interpretation of Faust: That of the self-destructive anti-hero who does evil without understanding its repercussions, but ultimately repents, only to be horribly destroyed by their own mistakes in a way that is tacitly unfair in the eyes of the sympathetic audience—a self-conscious indictment of moral tragedy, if you will. The fact that this basically happens to Sayaka in every timeline all but confirms my suspicion that this was a very intentional contrast to underline the importance of the central allusion. In other words, we need the old Faust to establish the new Faust, the damned to show the redeemed.]

Anonus

Funny, I just finished the series...

Was Homura the real protagonist?

Tachyon

@ Sredni: Wow, awesome post.  Sorry for apparently ignoring you earlier, i didn't mean to.

(Would you recommend familiarizing yourself with classical tragedy before reading Faust, in that case?)

Sredni Vashtar

Well, it's an interesting dynamic: I would argue that for most of the series, Madoka is the protagonist, but Homura is the "hero" of the tale—that is, the active positive agent. This flip-flops later.

Sredni Vashtar

@a8: Well, you don't have to—Faust is a remarkably readable, fun play even if you have no idea what Goethe is referencing—but it's good to know at least a little. Brush up a little on your Elizabethan and Greek tragedians (mainly Shakespeare and Euripides) and I think you'll be more than good.

Tachyon

Coolness.  i will do that. :)

Another incentive to get through my reading list and get back to reading what i want, as if i needed one...

Obā-san

i'm really only sufficiently familiar with Marlowe's Faust unfortunately

Justice4243

While we're on the topic, Faust is apparently free for the Kindle or free for Kindle on PC or what have you...

Sredni Vashtar

^^ I would personally recommend that you seek out Walter Kaufmann's translation of Goethe's version. It's excellent, and the introductory notes are highly informative.

Fossilmaiden

Justice42 said:

While we're on the topic, Faust is apparently free for the or free for on PC or what have you...

I would assume it's public domain, seeing as Goethe as been dead for over 180 years.

Justice4243

Indeed, but figured it might be useful if anyone had a kindle or liked to read e-books.